MINUTES OF THE
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 2007
Mayor Bolender called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. The following Commissioners were present at roll call: Commissioner Dickmann, Commissioner St. John, Commissioner Sokol, Commissioner Kopplin, Mayor Bolender, Commissioner Grabowski, Commissioner Correll and Commissioner Nowak. Commissioners Sokol and Siira were excused.(Commissioner Sokol arrived at 7:05pm) Also present were Jeff Fortin, Planner, and Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop.
Commissioner Grabowski moved to approve the minutes of January 23, 2007 Plan Commission meeting. Commissioner Dickmann seconds. Roll call, all voted aye. The minutes were approved as submitted.
Report on Significant Common Council Actions
Mr. Fortin updated the Commissioners on the actions that were taken at the January 29, 2007 and the February 6, 2007, Common Council meetings. There were no comments or concerns from the Commissioners.
Certified Survey Map – Isa Hidri
1101 E. Forest Hill Avenue
Tax Key No.: 826-9022
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was returning to the Commission with a 3-lot CSM that addresses the concerns expressed by staff and the Plan Commission at an earlier meeting. The new CSM will have three lots, one of which will contain the existing house. The existing house will continue to take access from E. Forest Hill Avenue but the two new parcels will have access from S. Benjamin Drive. The CSM has no access restriction along E. Forest Hill Avenue for Lot 2 to ensure they take access from S. Benjamin Drive.
Commissioner Correll moved that the Plan Commission recommend to the Common Council that the certified survey map for the property at 1101 E. Forest Hill Avenue be approved, subject to the following conditions:
Commissioner Grabowski seconds.
Roll call, Dickmann; aye, St. John; aye, Sokol; abstain; Kopplin; aye, Bolender; aye, Grabowski; aye, Correll; aye, Nowak; aye. Motion to approve carries.
Certified Survey Map – Woodman’s Food Market, Inc.
8131 S. Howell Avenue
Tax Key No.: 813-9011
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was requesting approval of a certified survey map that would create three lots in the B-4(CU), Highway Business District. Lot 1 will be the site of the Woodman’s Food Market while Lots 2 and 3 would be commercial outlots which could be sold for future retail development. Between lots 2 and 3 would be a strip of land owned by Woodman’s which is where the utility connections and monument sign will be.
Mayor Bolender questioned what else the outlot would be used for besides stormwater. Mr. Fortin explained the outlot would only be used for stormwater but Woodman’s would like to have all of the stormwater ponds within an outlot so they could have the outlot be under common ownership of Woodman’s and whoever the owners of lots 2 and 3 are. The problem with the third alternative is that this makes the Woodman’s lot 1 a substandard lot because it would not have 150 feet of lot width at the front setback line.
Mr. Dan Rosenfeld, Mid America Real Estate, commented the lot would only be used for stormwater and would not have a building put on the lot.
Commissioner Correll questioned if outlots with access to Howell Avenue was allowed under the original approval for Woodman’s. Commissioner St. John explained the lots would be on Howell Avenue but the access will be from the backside.
Mayor Bolender expressed concern for putting a holding pond on a lot of its own. Commissioner St. John explained the problem is not with the outlot created for the ponds, the problem was with the lot created for the supermarket. There would not be enough frontage left after the lots were carved off.
Commissioner Correll commented they did not need to maximize the two outlots. The alternative is very easy, they just lose an outlot and only get one. Commissioner St. John stated there were several other alternatives for them to get a legal lot for the supermarket. They would like a variance that makes it non-conforming and would allow them to build the building. The new alternative meets the letter of the ordinance but they still couldn’t build on that piece. Mr. Fortin commented it technically meets the letter of the law but if they did not have the big area behind it where they were building it would not be workable. Commissioner St. John felt the code needed to be looked at further. He meets the ordinance so how do you say no? It is a glitch in the code that needs to be addressed.
Commissioner Grabowski questioned if staff could foresee any other problems that would crop up because of how Woodman’s is choosing to move this forward. Commissioner St. John explained they were meeting the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. It is the City’s bad rule that they are following. It needs to be corrected in the future so this can’t happen again but this meets the zoning ordinance.
Commissioner Dickmann moved that the Plan Commission recommend to the Common Council that the revised version of the certified survey map submitted to the City on February 12, 2007 for the property at 8131 S. Howell Avenue be approved subject to any technical corrections being made prior to recording.
Commissioner Correll seconds.
Roll call, all voted aye. Motion to approve carries.
Final Plat – Emerald Meadows Addition No. 2
10625 & 10590 S. Emerald Meadows Drive and 3600, 3660 & 3620R E. Elm Road
Tax Key No.: 961-0032, 961-9993-001, 961-9993-002, 961-9033 & 961-9024
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was requesting approval of the final plat for the Emerald Meadows Addition No. 2 subdivision. The final plat will create 49 lots in Rs-2, Single Family residential zoning district. Lots in this district require a minimum lot area of 17,000 square feet and a minimum lot width of 100 feet. Each of these lots exceeds this requirement.
Commissioner Kopplin questioned if the City maps indicated that this has been approved by the DNR. Commissioner St. John explained once this was rezoned it will be passed on to the DNR and to FEMA to reflect the compensation fill that took place with the building of the subdivision.
Commissioner Grabowski moved that the Plan Commission recommend to the Common Council that the final plat for the Emerald Meadows Addition No. 2 subdivision be approved, subject to the following conditions:
Commissioner Sokol seconds.
Roll call, all voted aye. Motion to approve carries.
Rezoning – Flood Fringe Boundaries in Emerald Meadows Addition No. 2
10625 and 10590 S. Emerald Meadows Drive and 3600, 3660 and 3620R E. Elm Road
Tax Key No.: 961-0032, 961-9993-001, 961, 9993-002, 961-9033 and 961-9024
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was requesting a rezoning of lands form Rs-2, Single Family Residential to FF, Flood Fringe and from FF, Flood Fringe to Rs-2, Single Family Residential to reflect the new flood fringe boundaries created with the construction of the subdivision.
Commissioner St. John moved that the Plan Commission recommend to the Common Council that they approve the rezoning of lands at 10625 & 10590 S. Emerald Meadows Drive and 3600, 3660 and 3620R E. Elm Road to reflect the new FF, Flood Fringe Overlay District boundaries, after a public hearing.
Commissioner Nowak seconds.
Roll call, all voted aye. Motion to approve carries.
Zoning Text Amendment – Hotels as Conditional Use
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission staff was recommending the Plan Commission and Common Council make hotels and motels a conditional use in all districts where they are currently listed as a permitted use. Staff researched how other cities treat hotels and motels and found that many local communities including Oconomowoc, Franklin and West Allis allow for hotels only as conditional or special uses.
Commissioner Kopplin questioned what facilitated changing the ordinance. Mr. Fortin explained they have been getting a lot of inquires from different types of hotels and in discussing the issue it was felt that with the unique situation putting an extra level of regulation for the industry.
Commissioner Kopplin commented in most cases if they were allowed they have the architectural standards that the Commission can force them to do something with. She feels the motels that have been inquiring are refined and upscale hotels. Mr. Fortin explained they have had inquires from hotels that are not of that high standard. This would be an extra level and would give the City some comfort in dealing with the hotels and allow the City to put additional restrictions above and beyond what the zoning ordinance has in it.
Commissioner St. John knows that hotels are a pain but if they have to go through a public hearing and a conditional use is the City going to be competitive and will the industry sit through the process before they even begin the architecture or anything else. Mr. Fortin commented Franklin has a special use for hotels so it would not create a competitive disadvantage for Oak Creek.
Commissioner Grabowski expressed concern with passing an amendment such as this and felt it needed more discussion at staff level. Franklin is clearly directing this for 27th Street and Oak Creek shares the same vision. By placing this type of strictness on hotels, they already have to go through architectural standards and zoning changes and whatever else, this could be a detriment. She also questioned if this was specifically geared toward 27th Street. Mr. Fortin explained this was geared toward the B-4, which was all over the City and the two 27th Street overlay districts that allow hotels.
Commissioner Sokol commented he was not one to increase zoning ordinances but felt this was something that actually had some merit to it. With B-4 all over the City sitting right next to institutional and residential uses there are situations where you just would not want a hotel going in a particular place no matter what architectural standards they.
Commissioner Correll commented if the Commission passed this then it would require the extra step of the public hearing process. Mr. Fortin stated that was the case. They would come to the Plan Commission for the conditional use and then the conditions and restrictions and then the public hearing and approval at the Council meeting. Commissioner Correll then explained not a lot of residents want a hotel because they are not the ones using it. The City would be setting itself up, wanting to encourage business on the City side but to get it in here there would be a lot of negative that is opened up to. The added step may not be a good balance in how to get something done.
Commissioner Dickmann commented he did not feel this extra level was required. He has every confidence in staff sitting down with these kinds of businesses when they come in and present to them things that the City is for and against. He did feel the standards that are in place are enough at this time.
Commissioner St. John commented you could not ask for more with a conditional use. Mr. Fortin explained that was the whole point of a conditional use to add another level of conditions. Things such as setbacks, landscaping, and additional architectural can be added in the conditional use.
Mayor Bolender commented he was 110% against this amendment. He did not want to add additional things to screw up business. Mr. Fortin explained the Commission did have the option to recommend against the amendment if they did not believe it would be of a benefit. Obviously the Commission does not agree with staff on this issue so they could file it or send it forward to the Common Council with a recommendation to not approve.
Commissioner Grabowski moved to file the zoning text amendment at this time.
Commissioner Dickmann seconds.
Roll call, all voted aye. Motion to file carries.
Sign Ordinance Update – Electronic Messageboard Sign Discussion
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission over the next few Plan Commission meetings staff will be presenting various amendments to the City’s sign ordinance and seeking Plan Commission input. Staff would like to discuss electronic messageboard and changeable copy signs. Currently the City’s sign ordinance has very limited restrictions on these types of signs. Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the current restrictions on messageboard and changeable copy signs and also explained what some other communities are doing with electronic messageboard signs.
Commissioner Grabowski questioned if one business had a time and temperature then the neighboring business could not have an electronic messageboard. Mr. Fortin explained according to the current ordinance they could have an electronic messageboard but they could not have a time and temperature device within 1000 feet.
Mayor Bolender questioned Mr. Scaffidi if he thought red would be a problem to read. Commissioner Dickmann stated red was very difficult to read and the amber was much easier to read.
Mr. Scaffidi questioned how many message boards were currently in the City. Mr. Fortin commented there were about 30 total and most of the earlier ones have a primary color of red and the ones within the last two years were encouraged to use the amber color. Mr. Scaffidi felt it was more the size of the letters and not the color that mattered. He questioned if there were size requirements because the bigger the sign the easier it was to read regardless of the speed limit.
Mayor Bolender again questioned the color for the signs. Mr. Scaffidi felt red was fine but it was the height of the text that mattered but he was not sure what the minimum should be. He would worry more about how close the signs are together. If every business on Howell Avenue has a messageboard it would just become a blur.
Commissioner Grabowski questioned what was the better color the red or the amber. She would prefer to have the amber because the red may be dangerous. Brian Johnston did not feel there was a difference compared to the red or the amber. Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop commented if the sign was blinking like an emergency light it could create a problem. He would like to see the hold time be at least 5 seconds of readable time so you have time to read the entire sign.
Commissioner St. John felt we needed to add a grandfather clause of at least one year for signs that are currently installed. Mr. Fortin explained they had discussed one year for signs that are actually flashing or blinking to get the actual text into compliance.
Mayor Bolender felt they should grandfather in the existing signs and questioned the life of a sign. Commissioner Kopplin questioned the cost of a messageboard sign.
Commissioner Sokol questioned if scrolling text was considered revolving. Mr. Fortin stated he could add that to “e” to cover the scrolling. Commissioner Sokol questioned the content of the sign. He would prefer not to see every product in the store advertised on the sign.
Commissioner Dickmann expressed concern for the animated text. Commissioner St. John commented he did not mind grandfathering in someone who did not have the ability to change their sign for compliance but if they can comply they should change it but it would be very difficult to regulate.
Commissioner St. John questioned if the Commission wanted to limit the color for text or would it allow a rainbow of color on one sign. Mr. Fortin commented the intent was to limit red from being the primary color. Mayor Bolender was not in favor or telling everyone they had to have one specific color. Commissioner St. John was not in favor of red but did not want to see a circus look to try and attract peoples attention.
Commissioner Grabowski suggested the Commission ask what color was going to be when it was presented to the Commission. Commissioner St. John questioned if the Plan Commission really wanted to have to look at every animated board.
Mayor Bolender commented the best government was the least government.
Mr. Johnston commented he could check in the MUTCD to see if there was any information in there regarding the reader board restrictions.
Commissioner Nowak questioned if there was any relevance to the proximity of one sign to the other.
Commissioner Dickmann commented whatever was done the new advances with messageboards would be out of date a year or two from now.
Commissioner St. John commented unless you add a minimum lot width for a sign you could not do the spacing regulation because B-4 is a 150 foot lot. There could be signs as close as 10 feet apart. Does the City really want to start limiting who gets a sign?
Commissioner Sokol questioned the guidelines in place at this time for getting a messageboard sign. Mr. Fortin explained they would apply for a permit with the building inspection department and then the permit would be issued if the setbacks and sign height were met.
Commissioner Correll commented with some of the changes with banners the timing for this is now.
Commissioner Nowak moved to adjourn. Commissioner Dickmann seconds. Roll call, all voted aye. The meeting was adjourned at 7:53p.m.