MINUTES OF THE
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 2007
Mayor Bolender called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. The following Commissioners were present at roll call: Commissioner St. John, Commissioner Sokol, Commissioner Siira, Mayor Bolender, Commissioner Grabowski Commissioner, Correll and Commissioner Nowak. Commissioners Dickmann and Kopplin were excused. Also present were Jeff Fortin, Planner, and Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop.
Commissioner Grabowski moved to approve the minutes of the October 23, 2007, regular Plan Commission meeting. Commissioner Siira seconds. Roll call, all voted aye. The minutes were approved as submitted.
Report on Significant Common Council Actions
There were no comments or concerns from the Commission
Plan Review – Vnuk Accessory Structure
8401 S. 20th Street
Tax Key No.: 831-9005
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was requesting Plan Commission approval for the placement of a 24’ x 41.5’ garage on his property at 8401 S. 20th Street. The City of Oak Creek zoning ordinance allows for wall heights of up to 12 feet on properties that exceed ˝ acre, such as Mr. Vnuk’s. However Section 17.0501 of the City of Oak Creek zoning ordinance requires that the Plan Commission approve the location of such an accessory building.
Commissioner St. John questioned what the neighbor’s reaction was to this proposal. Mr. Fortin explained the neighbors within 300 feet were notified and there were no comments or concerns from the neighbors.
Commissioner St. John moved that the Plan Commission approve the location of the accessory structure for the property at 8401 S. 20th Street, subject to all building and fire codes being met.
Commissioner Grabowski seconds. Roll call, all voted. The motion to approve carries.
Plan Review – Henkel Corporation Pump House and Parking Lot Addition
420 W. Marquette Avenue
Tax Key No.: 766-9045
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was requesting approval of site, building and landscaping plan approval of a small pump house and parking lot addition for their property at 420 W. Marquette Avenue. They are proposing to use the same materials that are found on their existing building which is a precast concrete and a metal roof.
Commissioner St. John questioned the use of the pump house. Mr. Dan Fredrickson, Henkel Corporation, explained it would be used for fire protection to increase the pressure of the water. Commissioner St. John questioned why they couldn’t do an underground fault. Mr. Fredrickson explained it was an option to do an underground vault although with the water table they would be subject to sumps and they considered that the above ground would be better. Commissioner St. John questioned if it needed to be a distance away from the building. Mr. Fredrickson explained the current layout of the building does not really allow for a pump house or a booster pump to be either adjacent or internally to the building due to space constraints. Commissioner St. John expressed concern for the building being in the middle of the green space in the front yard. Mr. Fredrickson explained it would be shielded by some large fur trees from the east and there was a landscape plan to provide coverage around the pump house. Commissioner St. John felt if they wanted to match materials to the existing building it should be a lot closer to the building.
Commissioner Sokol commented he received his packet only two hours before the meeting and has not had a chance to review the materials.
Mayor Bolender would like to see the building screened with landscaping or make it look like a gazebo of some sort. Mr. Cory Beyer, Zimmerman explained they could change the appearance of the pump house if need be. Commissioner St. John commented it would need to be changed from a garage type building.
Commissioner Siira commented regardless of the look of the building it is the position of the building that is the concern. There may be an opportunity to have half of it in ground and half of it above ground and then a curved monument sign in front it to shield it from casual view.
Commissioner St. John moved that the Plan Commission approve the site and landscaping plans for the Henkel parking lot addition located at 420 W. Marquette Avenue, subject to the following conditions:
Commissioner Grabowski seconds. Roll call, all voted aye. The motion to approve carries.
Plan Review – Value Place Hotel
9315 S. 13th Street
Tax Key No.: 877-9995-004
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was requesting approval of site, building and landscaping plan approval for a four story Value Place Hotel. The hotel will have 121 rooms and is an extended stay hotel chain, whose rates are based on a weekly basis. The hotel’s exterior will feature brick and Hardiplank cement board siding.
Mr. Mark Schroeder, Value Place, brought some samples of the NICHIHA brick, it is a cementious product. It can be clipped onto the building and comes in different sizes and shapes to provide for whatever type of construction you may have. It is very durable and easy to replace if it becomes damaged. It also has a long lasting value and keeps the costs down. If real brick is required it will cause some financial issues with the project and it would be questionable whether they could afford to do the real brick.
Mayor Bolender commented the Value Place Hotels in several nearby states were investigated by the Police Department and by himself and they were found to have an impeccable record for serving the community that they are in and also it was mentioned that the buildings look very nice. Mayor Bolender questioned if the other hotels were constructed of the same materials. Mr. Schroeder stated they were all constructed of the Hardiplank or NICHIHA materials or a combination of them both. Mayor Bolender commented he was glad to have found out that they were a very good innkeeper and he was glad to see them in Oak Creek and believed they would not bring unnecessary police trouble to Oak Creek.
Commissioner Grabowski commented she also spoke with the Police Chief. Her concerns were with the type of clientele that would be drawn to this type of facility would be questionable. The 27th Street area has an overlay district that they are trying to attract A Grade investment development. She expressed concern for the residential area to the north and the development going on in the south. She expressed concern for the hotel not having staff after 2 pm on Saturday. Mr. Schroeder explained there was always staff on site. To cut costs they do not have Sunday lobby hours. They don’t have a game room, a pool or workout room or a restaurant because the people who use their hotels don’t need those types of things. The type of people that use the hotel are generally self-employed, hardworking folks, trying to cut their costs and stay in a safe simple clean environment which Value Place offers. The brand standards for Value Place are impeccable. If someone is doing something in our hotel they do not turn a blind eye to it. They call the police and have them removed immediately. They will not allow people like that to take over their hotels.
Commissioner Grabowski questioned why they chose to rent by the week and not daily. Mr. Schroeder explained that was the market they were trying to capture and they do it very well. The do not tolerate the problem group of people that like to congregate around hotels. Commissioner Grabowski expressed concern because of what the City was trying to do for 27th Street and an example was the Wyndham Suites that would be going up behind Walgreen’s. This area was what she considered the gateway to the City. The location would be detrimental and the location would be pushed to the back of the site. She questioned if they would be purchasing the entire site and what they envisioned for the front of the site. Mr. Schroeder explained this was a corporate site and the idea was to lease the front to a restaurant that would be beneficial to the hotel and the other businesses in the area.
Commissioner St. John commented the Plan Commission may want to struggle with the issue as to whether or not the fake brick was masonry or not. The brick product and the imitation wood product are exactly the same product except they are formed differently and painted differently. If you call the brick masonry how do you not call the siding masonry? If you start calling hardiplank masonry you can forget seeing brick and stone anywhere in the City because the cheaper alternative will be the hardiplank siding that looks like wood siding. Mr. Schroeder commented it was a cementious product and he did not mean to infer that it was a brick.
Commissioner Sokol questioned if Mr. Schroeder was representing a franchise. Mr. Schroeder explained he was representing Value Place Real Estate Services, the corporate side. Commissioner Sokol questioned who was going to own the property. Mr. Schroeder stated it was a corporate property that they did not plan on flipping to a franchisee in the future because Mr. Jack DeBoer, the owner liked this property.
Commissioner Sokol questioned how to spell Jack DeBoer and questioned if he was a close personal friend of Mr. Schroeder’s. Mr. Schroeder stated it was his boss and he has been working for him for about one and half years. He has known Mr. DeBoer for years. Commissioner Sokol questioned if Mr. DeBoer planned on maintaining the property and also questioned why he liked the property so much. Mr. Schroeder explained he did not know exactly why but assured Commissioner Sokol that Mr. DeBoer liked this site. Commissioner Sokol questioned if Mr. DeBoer was present this evening. Mr. Schroeder stated he was not.
Commissioner Sokol stated for the record again that he did not understand why he did not receive his packet of materials for the meeting until today. Mr. Fortin stated for the record it was mailed out on Friday with everyone else’s packet. Mr. Fortin suggested in the future if Commissioner Sokol did not receive a packet he should call and we will get one right over to him. Commissioner Sokol commented the interesting thing was that he almost always gets the packets on Saturdays but for some reason this particular time he got it on Tuesday.
Commissioner Sokol commented his biggest concern with the establishment was that in spite of what was being heard he did not have a chance to do any research on his own and he was left to just believe other people that they have done a good job researching the Value Place record. He was not comfortable with that and proposed that he have an opportunity to check it out himself. He would like to make sure that this particular site does not increase drunk driving in the area and he would like to make sure it doesn’t increase crime in the area. He has heard what Mr. Schroeder has stated that it does not do any of that but he would like to find out for himself and for the community. He questioned who would be in the hotel on a Saturday night at two in the morning. Mr. Schroeder stated there was always an assistant or a manager on site. Commissioner Sokol questioned when the manager would be in the building at two in the morning on a Saturday night. Mr. Schroeder explained he was not sure what shifts the manager or the assistant would be working. Somebody will always be on site.
Commissioner Sokol questioned what the hourly rate or salary was for the assistant manager. Mr. Schroeder explained the manager and assistant manager are paid salary and the room attendants are paid hourly. Commissioner Sokol questioned what the hourly rates would be. Mr. Schroeder commented he could not tell Commissioner Sokol what those rates were and was not sure he would be at liberty to tell even if he knew. He would rather not say. Mayor Bolender stated he did not believe that had any bearing. Commissioner Sokol stated he was wondering who the community would be relying on to make sure that all these wonderful things about these people being ejected from a hotel at two in the morning with a person that is drunk and obnoxious. He was just wondering what their pay scale was going to be. He also commented he felt it was very relevant. Mr. Schroeder stated he could tell him the training manual was an inch thick and it goes through the assistant managers and managers to identify different kinds of abuse, to identify drunkenness, to identify drugs, particular drugs, who to call, how to respond and how to react if they see any of this. They are well trained and who ever is on duty will handle it very well. Commissioner Sokol again questioned how much they are paid. You can say they are just well trained but they could be paid minimum wage. You are not going to tell us so I am just going to assume they are paid minimum wage. Mr. Schroeder did not think the managers or assistant managers were paid minimum wage. Commissioner Sokol stated how about a buck more than. Mr. Schroeder stated again he could not tell him.
Mayor Bolender asked if Commissioner Sokol had any more questions. Commissioner Sokol stated he did have additional questions. Mayor Bolender questioned what they were. Commissioner Sokol stated if Mayor Bolender did not mind he would like to take a second to gather his thoughts and ask the next question, if that was okay with him. Mayor Bolender stated that was fine with him but he also had a problem with…they seemed to be getting a little out of control with the wages or what have you and how much they are paying them and how they are going to eject them. The normal way to eject a person out of any hotel would be to call the police. The police are trained for this and have the proper equipment to remove anybody who lets say is not acting correctly. They are not hiring a goon squad. Commissioner Sokol questioned if he was speaking for the franchise on how they were going to operate their business or was he going to let this gentleman tell us this. Mayor Bolender stated he thought that was an improper question to him but he would just take a pass on that one. If Commissioner Sokol would like him (Mr. Schroeder) to answer that would be fine.
Commissioner Sokol requested to know the procedure for how somebody is ejected from the hotel. Mr. Schroeder explained first of all a complaint is made or an assistant manager or manager doing their normal room check, which they do on a regular basis, they find something that isn’t right. They have a right to go into that room anytime we like. The customer or guest has to sign an agreement with the hotel that the premise can be checked at any time reasonably for anything. If they walk in and see something that is not right, perhaps drugs, they will say you are out of here and need to leave. Pack your things up while I wait. If they do not leave then a call is made to the police department and they are removed from the premises. Commissioner Sokol stated so if they just happen to see drugs then they will call the police. Mr. Schroeder stated that was not the case, if they happen to walk in and see somebody being abused or drugs or violence then they deal with it appropriately. Commissioner Sokol questioned what would be done if they saw cars coming and going say every hour from a particular hotel. Mr. Schroeder stated it would absolutely be a reason to eject someone. They are trained for that situation and that would be an indication that something is going on in that room that shouldn’t be going on like any other hotel could have. They do not allow that to occur. Commissioner Sokol questioned how often the walk arounds occur. Mr. Schroeder stated they occur every two hours. Plus, you can only get in to the hotel through the front door. The back door is secured and the only way to get into our hotel is with the key card like you have for your hotel room. The public can only come through the front door and is stopped in the foyer between the locked door and the open public door. That controls access as well as the seven cameras on the property that monitor the access points. Commissioner Sokol questioned if the person was sitting in the lobby. Mr. Schroeder explained there was not a person in the lobby at all times. If the lobby is closed they are probably making rounds or doing other work in the hotel. Commissioner Sokol commented then there could be people coming and going without them knowing. Mr. Schroeder stated it could happen but that was why the key card was used and the cameras.
Commissioner Sokol questioned with respect to this being a franchise it would indicate that there was going to be a standard of quality that was going to be uniformly applied to all of the different hotel chains. Mr. Schroeder explained all of their hotels would have to abide by their brand standards whether it be a corporate or franchise hotel.
Commissioner Sokol then questioned if Mr. Schroeder’s organization and Jack DeBoer decided to flip this hotel how would they be able to monitor the quality from Wichita, Kansas. Mr. Schroeder stated with the people that travel everyday to every hotel and check them on what they call surprise and planned inspections both. If they do not meet the standards, there are certain criteria that they have to meet, then they are closed down or penalized through the franchisee system. He could not explain exactly how that worked, but until the mistakes or problems are cured that individual does not leave the hotel until he/she sees that those mistakes are taken care of and are corrected. Commissioner Sokol questioned if the policy was in the packet of material given to the Plan Commission. Mr. Schroeder explained it was basically some advertising that they do. Commissioner Sokol commented he would really be interested in their policies and questioned if it would be possible for the Plan Commission to review those policies. Again, he stated he would like to put the item on hold so they could properly review their record, police record, traffic, drunk driving in the area, crime in the area and make sure that is something they want for the City of Oak Creek.
Commissioner Sokol commented Mayor Bolender has frequently stated that he was upset that Franklin is getting the quality construction and Oak Creek is getting the second rate construction. Franklin is getting the good hotels and we are getting hotels that are Value Place, 1-800, flashing neon lights. He does not understand that. This is not consistent with the way this City should be heading and it is based on the Mayor’s own statements. Mayor Bolender stated what they were going to do was to ask the Commission to vote on the item. If he did not want to vote he understood but for some reason Commissioner Sokol came in tonight upset because of when he received his packet. Mayor Bolender could understand that and apologized and Mr. Fortin apologized already. It happened because of Veteran’s Day. Commissioner Sokol stated he usually gets his packet on Saturday and Veteran’s Day just compounded it and the reason he would like to put the item on hold was so he could get some more community people to see if they have a view point on this.
Commissioner Sokol pointed out Alderman Michalski and asked him to take the stand and give his position on this item because it was his district. Alderman Michalski stated from what he has seen tonight he liked the idea of the hotel. There may be some questions as to the material. Would it cause any problems down the line with any other building going up? They may need to look into that. They were talking about 13th Street and he thought Goodyear was next door to the property and American was on the other side of the property. Would he want something like this to go on 27th Street? No, maybe that would not be the best fit for it. He was in favor of the hotel, but there were some things that still needed to be worked out. It was viewed higher to him than the Red Roof Inn. He has taken an occasional ride with the police officers and they have told him the problems with some of the hotels in Oak Creek and it seems that they have put in some safety guards at the Value Place and felt they would work. He did not have a problem with the hotel coming in.
Commissioner Sokol again stated he would hope that they can put the item on hold so they can get the community an opportunity to hear this. He did not think they had an opportunity to know this was coming along and he thinks they owe it to the community to let them come in and express their opinion on whether they share what Alderman Michalski was saying what the district wants. Alderman Michalski explained generally speaking there was a system in place as to how people were notified for the meetings. There was an agenda on the internet and if you live within 300 feet of the building you get notified. Commissioner Sokol questioned if Alderman Michalski had called anyone and told them about this. Alderman Michalski explained he did not do that for this, he did not do it when Ray Bussler’s was sold, he did not do it when Kelly’s Bleachers was coming in and he doesn’t do it when a subdivision is being built. If people want to be there they have to do some things on their own. Commissioner Sokol questioned if Alderman Michalski would endorse allowing his district to have a hold on this item so they can get the community input onto what they think about this. Would he endorse that or would he be against letting the community voice their opinion? Alderman Michalski stated he would be in favor of the Planning Commission taking a vote as to what they want to do. He should not be telling the Plan Commission to put it on hold nor did he come to tell them to go ahead and put it through. They are the Commission and they should tell him as an Alderman what they want to do.
Commissioner Siira questioned if they had a maximum number of weeks that they would allow a party to rent. He was wondering where they would draw the line and whether or not this could become an apartment type of situation. Mr. Schroeder explained if it becomes a problem or someone is trying to live there year on end they would deal with that the best they know how. They do make all customers check in and check out once a week. They just can’t move in and stay continuously without anybody asking about them. When a guest checks in a copy of their driver’s license is taken and ran through Watchdog.org for obvious reasons. They do not have a maximum number of weeks or days that someone can stay.
Commissioner Siira questioned if the Fire Department had an opinion on the length of the driveway that served the hotel. Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop stated there were other properties in the City that had one point of access to one business and cited Midwest Express as one of those businesses. The widths of the roads and the turning radii on the scale that he has are close and they will have to meet the State of Wisconsin code as far as access width and turning radii. They have asked for an additional easement out to the north and that is one of the conditions to provide that easement. He encourages them to get that for an emergency cross access only or permanent.
Commissioner St. John questioned if they had an agreement for the access at this time. Mr. Schroeder stated they do not have it at this time but they have talked to American for access at some point in the future and they are willing to work with them on that issue.
Commissioner Grabowski commented she shares many of the questions that Commissioner Sokol has brought up. She questioned if they had amenities for families such as a small wading pool or a picnic area. Mr. Schroeder stated they do provide for families. They have a number of families that stay in their hotel. If they wanted those amenities they would go to a hotel that provides them. The people who stay in their hotels obviously do not need them or they wouldn’t be staying there. The rate of $169 per week is not the correct rate and he is not at liberty to disclose that due to competition issues until they open. Commissioner Grabowski stated from an aesthetics standpoint the location was questionable. She goes to bat for 27th Street every time she can and for this Planning Commission to approve this plan at this time she felt would not be in the best service to the constituents of Oak Creek. She believes that the police department will be visiting this site. They have an over abundance of hotel/motel in the community. She does not support this item and felt it would be beneficial to them moving forward to look to get a permanent cross access easement. She questioned if the City would be within its rights to demand that they get the permanent cross access. A.C. Krudop stated it would not be consistent with what they have done in the past. There are other properties that are similar. There are residences in the City that have long narrow access points. He also explained the reasoning behind two points of access for residential developments.
Commissioner Correll expressed concern for the brick and setting a standard that they may have some issues with. He pointed out this was not 27th Street it was 13th Street and was a different venue on a challenging property next to Goodyear property. He questioned why some members of the Commission had no questions for a night club they approved a month ago regarding drunk driving, crime, traffic or any of those things and yet they have been pretty extensive in these questions. Hotels in this city can change ownership weekly and they have no control over that once it is built and zoned to be a hotel. This is definitely a different market as far as what some of us may want to see there as far as types of hotel. They have kind of picked the credentials of this property apart when they have similar properties with bigger issues that do as much as it seems like they are trying to do to take care of some of those problems. He is stuck on the brick issue but does not have a problem with use.
Commissioner Sokol addressed Commissioner Correll’s comment and questioned if he had an ownership interest in a restaurant. Commissioner Correll stated he has lots of restaurants. Commissioner Sokol commented restaurants would probably benefit from having a hotel like this in the vicinity, wouldn’t they. Commissioner Correll stated that could be he really did not know. Commissioner Sokol stated they should assume they could be and stated he did not think Commissioner Correll’s comment should be very well noted. He had a vested interest in having hotels like this put into the community. Mayor Bolender stated this line of questioning needed to stop. They did their homework with these businesses with the police department and three different communities that have these hotels. Commissioner Sokol requested that his comment regarding Pat was on the record and in the written record. Commissioner Correll commented for rebuttal that he had ownership in two hotel properties that would suffer from this.
Mayor Bolender commented this property was across the expressway on a lot that you are not going to get any high end hotel in. It is between a tire shop and American. You look at a hotel there and nobody is going to live there for the aesthetic value. You are going to go there for a room so you can conduct your business in and around the City. Commissioner Sokol commented you have to start somewhere. Mayor Bolender commented he understood what he was thinking but it was an area on 13th Street that the hotel fit into because there were not a lot of businesses that would want to go next to the tire store or next to American that had traffic coming and going daily and nightly. Commissioner Sokol stated his main concern was that the item be placed on hold so that they can get community in put on the item. Mayor Bolender questioned what the Commission was for.
Mr. Terry Zastrow, 9011 S. York Court, commented he made sure the postal service building was put up correctly and all the hoops they had to jump through to get it up. Now that they are on 13th Street in the ghetto of Oak Creek maybe they should talk to some of the residents that just live a few yards up 13th Street. He questioned what the track record was with the people that were staying at the hotel. He would like to see quality stuff put on the buildings in Oak Creek.
Commissioner St. John stated he was going to make a motion. Commissioner Sokol thought there may still be some community people that they needed to listen to.
Mayor Bolender questioned if there was anyone else that wanted to comment.
Mr. Mark Steffan, 1001 Potomac Drive, commented he stays in hotels and builds hotels throughout the country. He was a little disturbed about the type of hotel this was going to be and did not agree with the type of materials that were proposed. He felt the City should stick with the standards of brick or natural materials that enhance a development. He stated he knew that people stayed in these hotels because of the price and did not feel that was the kind of people that Oak Creek was trying to attract. He stated the tire store could go away some day and that American was a different kind of business. They were a profitable business that kept up their building and that their parking was in the back and you do not see it. The hotel was going to have it opposite of that and he did not agree with that. When there is a question about having to worry about traffic from semi trailers that would not fly with him. He built on 13th Street because he could get to the airport and the train station quickly. He did not see 13th Street being an area that needed to dumb down to this particular level of property.
Ms. Karin Lafreniere, 8950 S. River Edge Drive, stated she was opposed against the development.
Commissioner St. John moved that the Plan Commission does not approve the use of cement fiber simulated brick as building material.
Mayor Bolender stated there was the question of having the hotel there in the first place.
Commissioner Sokol seconds.
Mayor Bolender stated he could agree with them on the masonry product. Commissioner St. John stated then you couldn’t approve it if you wanted if the case was that it was not masonry.
Commissioner Nowak commented that was not the item before the Commission. Commissioner St. John stated it was a subset of this item. Mr. Fortin explained it was for a building with this fake brick on it. Commissioner Nowak questioned if they were approving the site and the landscaping then. Commissioner St. John stated he was not approving anything. He was just saying that was not a masonry product. If that is not a masonry product, they don’t meet the requirements, it can’t be approved. Commissioner Nowak stated as opposed to approving it with a contingency. Commissioner St. John stated you don’t want to do that. Commissioner Nowak stated you could just add one more condition. Commissioner Sokol stated there was a motion on the table.
Roll call, all voted aye. The motion to not accept fake brick as brick carries.
Plan Review – Corporate Square Phase 2
7300 S. 13th Street
Tax Key No.: 764-9011
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was proposing to add a fourth office building to the east of the existing Corporate Square office development at 7300 S. 13th Street. The building would feature the same materials and color schemes found on the existing three Corporate Square buildings.
Commissioner St. John moved that the Plan Commission approves the site, building, and landscaping plans for the property at 7300 S. 13th Street, subject to the following conditions:
Commissioner Grabowski seconds.
Roll call, all voted aye. The motion to approve carries.
Conditional Use Permit – Valley National Gassess, LLC
1075a W Northbranch Drive
Tax Key No.: 735-9028
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was requesting a conditional use approval to allow for the storage of inflammable gasses and liquids in excess of 5,000 gallons as an accessory to a permitted use. Valley National Gasses is a welding supply company and part of their business is the sale of various gasses for the welding industry.
This item was withdrawn by the Planning Department after it was found the only material that was flammable was the propane and they would not be in excess of 5,000 gallons.
Commissioner St. John moved to adjourn. Commissioner Grabowski seconds. Roll call, all voted aye. The meeting was adjourned at 8:26p.m.