MINUTES OF THE
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 2005
Mayor Bolender called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. The following Commissioners were present at roll call: Commissioner Dickmann, Commissioner St. John, Commissioner Sokol, Commissioner Siira, Commissioner Foeckler, Mayor Bolender, Commissioner Grabowski, and Commissioner Peterson. Commissioner Correll was excused. Also present were Jeff Fortin, Planner, and Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop.
Commissioner Siira moved to approve the minutes of September 13 & 14, 2005 Plan Commission meeting. Commissioner Grabowski seconds. Roll call, all voted aye except Foeckler who abstained and Sokol who was absent. Commissioner Sokol requested some changes to the minutes with respect to the rezoning of 8375 S. Howell Avenue and 7470 S. 13th Street First and second concur. Roll call, all voted aye except Foeckler and St. John abstained. Minutes were approved with changes.
Report on Significant Common Council Actions
Mr. Jeff Fortin, Planner updated the Commissioners on the actions that were taken at the September 20, 2005, Common Council meetings. Commissioner Dickmann commented that the reason the CSM was accepted was because of what the Commission can and cannot do in regards to certified survey maps.
Certified Survey Map – Menards Garden Center & Warehouse
6840, 6800, 6720 S. 27th Street and 6851 S. 20th Street
Tax Key No.: 737-9007, 737-9999-001, 737-9029 and 737-9032
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was returning to the Commission with a revised certified survey map as a result of green space concerns. In order to meet the green space requirement the applicant has proposed Grasspave as an alternative.
Commissioner Dickmann questioned if there was a way they could reach the 30 percent green space requirement. Mr. Fortin explained they could reach the 30 percent but they would prefer to have the additional parking spaces. With the additional land from the CSM they could meet the 30 percent requirement and still add some additional parking spaces. Commissioner Dickmann suggested Menards and Judy’s work something out so Judy’s could meet the 30 percent requirement. Mr. Fortin explained the CSM as submitted does meet the green space requirements. Judy’s would not meet the requirements once they submitted plans for the parking lot expansion.
Commissioner Grabowski requested comments to the 27th Street Corridor Plan that stated the applicant demonstrate certain need before approval of any request to build parking more than 20 percent in excess of that required by Code. Mr. Fortin commented that was why staff was recommending that the site plan be revised to meet the 30 percent. It would be easier to add parking at a later date than to remove parking that is not being used. Commissioner Grabowski stated that if the parking did not go in at this time, if there was a need in the future Judy’s could come forward and request the additional parking at that time.
Commissioner St. John commented they would still have to meet the 30 percent requirement at that time and they would not be able to do that.
Commissioner Dickmann commented when the Comprehensive Plan was written there was a stipulation that based on a ¾ vote of the Plan Commission in unique cases they could allow someone not to have the 30 percent green space but it would need to be very unique. He suggested that at a later date if it was proven that they needed additional parking they could return to the Commission and they could look at it at that time. Mr. Fortin confirmed that was correct; there was a provision for a wavier for the green space requirement.
Commissioner St. John questioned what they were allowed for parking spaces. Mr. Fortin stated with the actual dining area they would be allowed 60 spaces and then one space per employee for the work shift with the most employees which they say is 30 for a total of 90 parking spaces which is the minimum required by Code. Commissioner St. John questioned if the green space of the undesignated parking space would make the 30 percent. Mr. Fortin believed that the area that was shown as being used with the Grasspave would equal the 30 percent. Commissioner St. John felt their proposal met all the requirements. Mr. Fortin agreed if the Plan Commission considered the Grasspave as green space. Commissioner St. John commented staff was considering it as not parking and it could not be considered as parking and not as parking at the same time. Mr. Fortin clarified staff was saying they did not want the Grasspave they would like to have the area that is being proposed as Grasspave to have actual landscaping until a need was demonstrated and at that time they could return to the Plan Commission. At this point it is up to the Commission to decide when the site plan comes forward if they would like to the see the Grasspave or actual green space. Commissioner St. John proceeded to explain the way the Grasspave worked and in his mind it was green space.
Mayor Bolender agreed with Commissioner St. John, if you could park cars on it when the parking lot was full what was the difference. Mr. Fortin stated it would be up to the Commission what the difference was.
Commissioner Foeckler questioned what the Grasspave looked like. Commissioner St. John explained how it was used and what it looked like. Commissioner St. John questioned if Mr. Fortin would approve if they did not put the plastic under the ground. Mr. Fortin explained staff’s idea was to leave the area as green space and return in the future if there was a parking problem. If the Commission is comfortable with the Grasspave parking area they can go ahead with that motion.
Commissioner Dickmann questioned how the Grasspave would hold up to snow plows. Commissioner St. John questioned if there were any current business within Oak Creek that were designed to the current standards were there is not enough parking. If the parking lot was designed to the current standards there would be no reason to have to plow the Grasspave.
Commissioner Foeckler commented the argument goes both ways if there was no need to plow the area there may not be a need for the area and it could be left green space. He also commented the green space requirement was done for two reasons one was for aesthetics and the other was for stormwater. This appears to satisfy the stormwater requirement but it may be an aesthetics problem. Currently we are trying to change the way 27th Street looks and he did not feel there was a need for the extra space.
Commissioner Sokol questioned does anybody know how this grass is going to look? Typically when you put grass over, right over gravel or some sort of surface that is not dirt that grass tends to burn out rather quickly. How does this work with maintaining the grass looking good? Maybe, Wayne, I am not familiar with the process.
Commissioner St. John again explained the product and how it worked. Commissioner Sokol questioned how much dirt was under the grass. Commissioner St. John replied about 3 to 4 inches.
Commissioner Dickmann motioned that the Plan Commission recommend to the Common Council that the Certified Survey Map for the properties at 6840, 6800, 6720 S.27th Street and 6851 S. 20th Street be approved, subject to the following conditions:
1. Than any technical corrections are made prior to recording, including the designation of Parcel 2 as an Outlot.
2. That the applicant returns to the Plan Commission with a revised site plan for Judy’s restaurant parking area that includes 30 percent green space.
3. That stormwater maintenance agreement is entered into between Menards and the City prior to recording of the map to address the maintenance of the stormwater basin on Outlot 1.
Commissioner Grabowski seconds. Roll call, all voted aye. Motion carries.
Certified Survey Map – City of Oak Creek
2025 W. Southbranch Boulevard
Tax Key No.: 828-9997
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the City of Oak Creek was requesting approval of a certified survey map that would move a property line in order to create a vacant 3.9 acre lot in the M-1, Manufacturing District. Each of the two lots created would exceed the zoning requirements for minimum lot width and area.
Mr. Ralph Lamachi, representing Sal Campione of Joseph Campione Garlic Bread, questioned if they were to purchase the property for an addition to the Campione Bakery if they would have to meet the 40 percent green space requirements. Mr. Fortin explained lots within the M-1 zoning district would need to maintain a 30 percent green space requirement.
Mr. Sal Campione was not sure they could meet the green space requirements with the addition that was being planned for his business. Mr. Fortin felt Mr. Campione was getting ahead of himself, at this time they were looking at the certified survey map. Commissioner St. John commented the City had several interested parties for the parcel and any green space issues would be looked at when something came forward for plan review.
Commissioner Siira motioned the Plan Commission recommend to the Common Council that the certified survey map for the property at 2025 W. Southbranch Boulevard be approved, subject to any technical corrections being made prior to recording, including moving the property line to 20 feet away from the principal structure where possible.
Commissioner Peterson seconds. Roll call, all voted aye. Motion carries.
Plan Review (parking lot expansion) – Menards & Judy’s Restaurant
6840 and 6868 S. 27th Street
Tax Key No.: 737-9007, 767-9995
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission the applicant was requesting approval of a parking lot expansion for the properties at 6840, 6800, 6720 S. 27th Street and 6851 S. 20th Street.
Commissioner St. John motioned the site plan be submitted that would meet the 30 percent green space.
Grabowski seconds.
Mr. Mark Lee, Menards Inc, explained after meeting with Judy’s and City staff they came forward with a plan using the Grasspavers. After hearing Mr. Seymour’s concerns regarding the issue he resubmitted a plan to him electronically getting the 30 percent green space without using the pavers by losing some parking on the Menards parking lot. The plan was submitted to Mr. Seymour previously and to the Commission at this time for their review.
Mr. Lee explained he was willing to do whatever it would take to get the plan approved. Commissioner St. John questioned where the corresponding changed CSM was. Mr. Lee requested the CSM be approved subject to changing the property boundaries to comport with the plan. Mr. Fortin suggested adding a condition as a technical correction to the CSM before it goes forward to Council that the lot lines be changed.
Commissioner Grabowski would prefer to have full discussion as to the CSM and then to the plan review. She also questioned if there was a meeting with staff. Mr. Lee responded he met in the Mayor’s office with staff last week and it was suggested at that time to use the pavers to satisfy the green space requirements and still get the parking the Salia family was looking to have.
Commissioner Grabowski questioned the pavers and how they would hold up. Commissioner St. John pointed out that with the new proposal submitted they would not be using the pavers. The green space would be behind the restaurant. Mr. Lee explained the first plan that was submitted with the staff report used the pavers and the plan given to the Commissioners at this time eliminated the pavers.
Commissioner Peterson questioned what plan they were supposed to be voting on. Mr. Fortin explained the options available to the Commission were to vote on the original submission or the one handed out at the meeting.
Commissioner Dickmann commented Mr. Lee should have commented when they were discussing the certified survey map. Mr. Lee did not know he had an opportunity to speak because it was never opened up to the floor.
Commissioner Grabowski felt the discussions were not done in the proper order.
Commissioner Foeckler questioned what the current parking count was for Judy’s. Mr. Lee explained there are currently 135 parking spaces and they would like to increase the parking to 149, which is a smaller increase than originally thought.
Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop would like to see a condition added that the plan meets all fire codes if the Commission chooses to vote on a plan that staff did not have the opportunity to review. He also commented he liked the 30 percent green space and it felt it helped Oak Creek. He thought green space should be trees and bushes and not just grass.
Commissioner St. John asked for clarification on the 20 percent over rule. Mr. Fortin explained it was in the guidelines for the 27th Street Corridor plan for the 20 percent over on parking spaces and the Plan Commission would need to give its approval.
Commissioner Grabowski expressed concern for a plan handed out at the last minute and would prefer not to move forward on the plan without further staff review. Mr. Lee explained the change to the plan was because Mr. Seymour did not like the Grasspave and the new plan was Menard’s response to that Grasspave issue.
Mr. Sal Salia explained to the Commission he had 133 seats in the restaurant and they are full most of the time and that was the reason for the request for the additional parking.
Mayor Bolender directed the item held.
Landscape Plan Review – We Energies
Multiple Addresses (Elm road Generating Station Units 1 & 2)
Tax Key Nos.: Multiple
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission as part of the their approval for the Elm Road Generating Station Units 1 & 2, We Energies was required to submit their landscape screening plan to the Plan Commission for approval. The landscaping plan includes numerous shade, ornamental, and evergreen trees and well over 2,000 shrubs, flowers, and other groundcover plantings.
Mr. Arden Degner, 8540 S. Pennsylvania Avenue, questioned where the access roadway to the fishing pier was going to be located. Commissioner St. John explained at the present time the access for the fisherman would be off of Oakwood Road which would not show on the landscape plan because there would not be any landscaping in that area.
Mr. John Oswald, We Energies, explained the fisherman access would come in off of Oakwood Road heading south along the railroad tracks that would tie into a road that would lead to the fishing pier. Mr. Degner expressed concern for safety with a path of any type that ran along the railroad tracks and requested a fence or barrier of some type.
Commissioner Sokol wondered if there was a natural rise with respect to the portion of the property along Oakwood Road because the berms extend all the way around the property except when you get towards Oakwood. There is no berm or trees being planted and he understood there was wetlands and that you couldn’t plant trees in wetlands. He questioned the darkened area on the plan that would appear to be a berm but was not a berm. Mr. Oswald explained they were existing elevation lines that showed a slight grade change and to the north it was the natural contours of the land that was currently there.
Commissioner Siira questioned why all landscaping stopped abruptly at the point on the plan along Oakwood Road. Mr. Oswald felt it went back to the agreement with the Council on where berms would be located and there sizes. The landscaping plan showed landscaping on the preapproved berm locations. Mayor Bolender confirmed that the berm locations were previously approved by Council in 2003. Commissioner Sokol explained the reason he was raising the question was because the land to the north on the other side of Oakwood was going to be residential area and there is nothing, no berms, no trees it is just a straight shot. Mayor Bolender commented it was all marsh in that area. Commissioner Sokol stated there was a natural berm that the trees and landscaping could extend around. Mayor Bolender explained the berms were in there and there was also marsh that the berms were placed as close as they could put them without interfering with the marsh land. Commissioner Sokol again explained there was a strip it seemed they could extend it around but it just stops and it is not marsh. The berm continues but the landscaping stops. Mayor Bolender commented again this was just a landscaping map. Commissioner Sokol felt the landscaping should continue around the berm. Mayor Bolender commented there was a lot of scrub in the area that you would not be able to see anything.
Mr. Oswald explained the area along Oakwood Road and the northern end of the landfill which was does not have the berming is covered with scrub and brush work and a berm is not just a line on the plan. Commissioner Sokol clarified he was not asking for anymore berms but was questioning the landscaping ending and not continuing. Mayor Bolender commented it would be senseless to put trees in where you already have heavy scrub and cannot see through it. Mr. Oswald explained the reason for the trees and the shrubs on the berms was because that was new soil that was place there and would not have any type of cover. In the area to the north there are already natural plantings.
Commissioner Dickmann motioned the Plan Commission approve the landscaping plan for We Energies based on the review and approval of the plan by the City Forester.
Commissioner Foeckler seconds. Roll call, all voted aye. Motion carries.
Conditions and Restrictions – Riteway Bus Service, Inc.
7470 S. 13th Street
Tax Key No.: 764-9012
Mr. Fortin explained to the Commission at the September 13, 2005 meeting, the Plan Commission recommended that the Common Council rezone the property at 7470 S. 13th Street and grant a conditional use permit for a private bus service storage parking yard with the addition to item 2 Parking and Access H that no access shall be taken from S. 13th Street.
Commissioner Foeckler asked for clarification on the rezoned area and if it was to be a parking lot for buses. Mr. Fortin explained the parking would be for employees and would be back 185 feet from 13th Street and that area is to be maintained for green space, landscaping or stormwater management.
Commissioner Foeckler commented he liked to see businesses expand because it meant they were doing well but to put asphalt over grass and trees was a conflict.
Ms. Nancy Moss, 7507 S. 13th Street, questioned what the property to the north of the proposed parking lot was zoned. Mr. Fortin stated the property to the north was B-4, Highway Business. Ms. Moss questioned how long the property was zoned B-4 because it was her understanding that south of the church it was all residential. Mr. Fortin stated he would have to research exactly when it was done but it may have been done as part of the City wide rezone in 1995.
Ms. Moss expressed concern for the residential area looking directly at the parking lot. Mr. Fortin explained when they come back with the site plan they will have to provide adequate landscaping and buffer yards.
Commissioner Grabowski questioned if there would be adequate landscaping on the south side and along 13th Street. Mr. Fortin explained they have not yet seen a landscaping plan.
Commissioner St. John commented the area that was wooded was also the area for stormwater and then it would no longer be wooded. Mr. Fortin confirmed that part of the wooded area would be removed for stormwater.
Commissioner Grabowski questioned how much parking would come out of the 2.1 acres. Mr. Fortin did not have an exact number because the actual site plan approval had not been brought forward at this time.
Commissioner Sokol questioned why the residential properties were not shown on the map but the business properties were. Mr. Fortin explained they were on the map; it would just need to be zoomed out to see them. (Mr. Fortin adjusted the map to make all the zoning clearer on the map.)
Commissioner Sokol questioned if they wanted manufacturing extending up into areas that are very close to the residential areas. Mr. Fortin explained the Plan Commission already recommended approval of the rezoning and at this time they were looking at the restrictions on the rezoning. The actual rezoning was recommended for approval to the Common Council at the last meeting.
Commissioner Foeckler questioned if the rezoning and the conditions and restrictions were going to the Council at their next meeting. Mr. Fortin stated they would not go to the next meeting but the one following that. Commissioner Foeckler stated he would not support the item at Council. He felt the area of green space that had developed into some commercial and some residential was a good buffer between the largest industrial park in southeastern Wisconsin and to have it extend closer to 13th would change 13th Street. Commissioner Dickmann commented a business could go in there instead of the green space. Commissioner Foeckler stated a parking lot was a different environment than a business building. It takes away some tax base for the area.
Commissioner Grabowski explained part of the discussion heavily weighed on Riteway’s usage because they wanted to have land that would be directly adjacent to the parcel so that they would be able to walk to the property. If they were not able to expand they would have to take the business else where. Commissioner Foeckler understood the reasoning behind it, that you want a business to expand and remain successful but a parking lot is not the best use for the area.
Commissioner Dickmann commented that if it were a parking lot for large buses he would not have considered it but it was for employee parking and the vehicles would not even be seen as opposed to a large building.
Commissioner St. John questioned whether anyone who pays to go on a bus trip is neither an employee nor a visitor under item J. Commissioner Sokol commented these were school buses not a bus stop but it would be bus parking. Commissioner St. John commented they were changing. They were requesting from the utility the right to empty septic tanks out of buses which would not be on school buses. Commissioner Grabowski questioned where the holding tanks would be. Ms. Rochelle Bast, Riteway Bus Service, commented they were thinking of having some motor coaches at the site and then they would be cleaned at night. The property and the parking lot would be for employees only. At this time employees are parking to the south of the building and they would like to open that up for some additional equipment. Commissioner Grabowski questioned what type of equipment would be on the site. Ms. Bast explained it would only be employee vehicles on the area that was rezoned and the equipment would go where the employees are currently parking.
Commissioner Sokol understood from Ron Bast that he did look to buy some other M-1 property in that area and he could not find any. Ms Bast confirmed that was the case. Commissioner Sokol stated it was not clear to him that Mr. Bast actually looked to lease any property, any M-1 property that could be used for parking buses, cars or whatever and questioned if Ms. Bast knew the answer to that question. Ms. Bast stated she did not know the answer to that but that when they look they like to buy because they like to be part of the community as owners. So they really looked to purchase instead of leasing. Commissioner Sokol commented it would seem to him that before the City would rezone for them they would look to lease. If they haven’t even looked to lease it would seem silly to rezone. Mr. Fortin again explained that the Plan Commission already recommended that this be rezoned. Commissioner Sokol just wanted to make it part of the record.
Commissioner Peterson commented that the rezone was discussed thoroughly at the last meeting and they could not tell people how to run their business. The Commission is in place to adhere to what the requirements are of the City and right now they are looking at the conditions and restrictions of something the Commission has already passed. Commissioner Sokol made it clear, for the record that it was about 12:00 midnight when they were having the conversation at the last meeting and that it really was not that long of a discussion compared to other discussions at that meeting. Commissioner Peterson commented that was immaterial.
Commissioner St. John again questioned if patrons would be parking in this area. Ms. Bast stated no patron would be parking in the new area and that it would only be employees. Mr. Fortin suggested revising the condition item J to remove the parking area would be for employee and visitor parking and have it say employee parking if the Commission was comfortable with that.
Mr. Ken Moss, 7507 S. 13th Street, asked for clarification on the current zoning of the property. Mr. Fortin explained it was currently zoned B-4 and at the last meeting the Plan Commission recommended rezoning and it would still need to go to Common Council for actual approval of the rezoning. Mr. Moss would rather have it B-4 because it would fit better with the residents and the other B-4s that currently exist. He would also like to see a deed restriction for future occupants or purchasers of the property that they would not be able to get an access to 13th Street. Commissioner Dickmann stated that was part of the conditions and they would go with the purchase of the property.
Commissioner Sokol questioned if it would be possible to have this passed and amend this that it be subject to that deed restriction. Mr. Fortin explained you could not put a deed restriction on somebody else’s property. The control the Commission has is the conditions and restrictions. The City cannot put a deed restriction on somebody else’s property. Commissioner Sokol understood that they could do a delayed contingent effective date for this going into effect, subject to a deed restriction being placed to encompass these requirements. Mr. Fortin explained it was listed as the conditions and restrictions and it was spelled out that they become an ordinance and it is an ordinance that would say they cannot have access. Commissioner Sokol asked how about right for the deed for the property that it would state that so that somebody who might buy this land in the future doesn’t think they are getting something that they are not.
Commissioner St. John questioned if the conditions and restrictions were recorded. Mr. Fortin stated they were adopted as an ordinance.
Commissioner Sokol stated the person that would be buying the land may not see if they don’t research this they will miss it but, if they put it into the deed of the property they will have no reason to buy the land and not see the deed restriction. Mr. Fortin explained it was not going to be a separate parcel, it was going to be joined to the main parcel before the parking lot was constructed. It would not be a separate parcel that could be sold at a later date unless they sell the entire thing. Before we start trying to put deed restrictions on they should check with Larry on any legal issues with doing that. The way the City has typically controlled things of this type was to put them into the conditions and restrictions that would be adopted as ordinance if the Council agrees with them. Commissioner Sokol commented he took the liberty of calling a gentleman named Dick Lehmann and he happens to know Larry. Commissioner Sokol understood that the Commission could do a delayed contingent effective date to insure that there is a deed restriction on this property to this effect and that will not be a violation of contract zoning which is prohibited by the Wisconsin Constitution.
Commissioner Grabowski questioned if both of the parcels would be joined and the portion for the parking would be M-1 and would strictly be for the conditional use of employee parking. Mr. Fortin confirmed that was the case and they would not be able to put a building on the property, take access off of 13th street and only be used for employee parking. If it was adopted it would be a City ordinance and would be placed on the map as a conditional use. The conditional use will run with the property but does not preclude someone from coming to the Commission to amend the conditional use.
Commissioner Peterson motioned the Plan Commission recommend to the Common Council that the attached conditions and restrictions are adopted as part of the conditional use permit for the property at 7470 S. 13th Street with the addition of the following changes:
1 Required Plans, Easements, Agreements and Public Improvements
J That the new parking area shall be for employee parking only, no bus or visitor parking shall be permitted.
2. Parking and Access
H. No access shall be taken from 13th Street.
Commissioner Siira seconds. Roll call, Dickmann; aye; St. John, aye; Sokol, nay; Siira, aye; Foeckler; nay; Bolender, aye; Grabowski; nay; Peterson, aye. Motion carries.
Commissioner Foeckler motioned to adjourn. Commissioner Grabowski seconds. Roll call all voted aye. The meeting adjourned at 8:45 p.m.