MINUTES OF THE
TUESDAY, AUGUST 9, 2005
Mayor Bolender called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. and announced that Jane Rolling has resigned from Plan Commission and that he has appointed Jeffrey Sokol.
Commissioners present at roll call: Dickmann, Jackson, Sokol, Foeckler, Bolender, Grabowski, Correll and Peterson. Ed Siira was excused. Also in attendance was Jeff Fortin, Planner, Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop and John Barth, Chairman Board of Appeals.
Commissioner Dickmann motioned to approve the minutes of July 26, 2005. Commissioner Peterson seconds. All approve. Minutes approved.
Report on Significant Common Council actions. Jeff Fortin, Planner stated that at the August 1, 2005 Common Council meeting they approved the Mayor’s appointment of Jeffrey Sokol to the Plan Commission to complete a term expiring April 2006. The Common Council also approved resolution No. 10535-080105 approving a development agreement with Micjensar Development, LLC for the Shepard Orchard subdivision at 10222 S. Shepard Avenue.
Jeff explain to the Plan Commissioners that the Plan Commission is now the body that will hold sign appeal hearings and make decisions on sign variance requests. Since the appeal process is a quasi-judicial hearing there are certain procedures that need to be followed. He explained that the order of business will be as follows:
Jeff Fortin explained that the applicant was requesting a variance from the Oak Creek Municipal Code, Section 17.0706(i)(1), which stated that shopping centers and multi-tenant buildings may provide one ground or pole sign. Both facilities may also provide one wall sign or one canopy sign for each business in the building. If granted, the variance would allow Pick ’n Save to place two additional wall signs on the south elevation of the building. The additional signs they are requesting the variance for are a pharmacy sign and a wine and spirits sign. The signs will use internally-illuminated red letters.
The applicant is also requesting a variance from Section 17.0706(a), which limits wall signs to a maximum of 100 square feet. The applicant is proposing a 216 square foot “Pick ‘n Save” sign on the south elevation. The rationale for this request is that the building is setback about 495 feet from the West Ryan Road right of way. This wall sign will also use internally illuminated red letters.
In addition to these wall signs, Pick ‘n Save will have a ground sign which will be placed at the southeast corner of the property near West Ryan Road. This sign meets all the height, setback and area requirement for ground signs. There may also be an exterior sign for Tri-City Bank, which will be located inside the Pick ‘n Save store. An application for this sign has not been submitted.
Pick ‘n Save representative Mike Johnson was sworn in. He explained the requests that they are making is to allow what has been a standard for Pick ‘n Save stores for a long time. The signage requests that they are making is: 1) was to allow us to have a typically sized Pick ‘n Save sign on a very large store front such as this with a very long set back such as this complying with the 100 square feet would make that sign look minuscule on the building face. He pointed out on the rendering the sign looks appropriate for the building size, it’s architecturally correct and reducing that more than half would make that size look like a postage stamp on the side of a very large wall not to mention that from Ryan Road it would be almost unreadable. It’s too far away. 2)The second issue is the pharmacy and wine and spirit sign which is also typically for a newer Pick ‘n Save. Not all Pick ‘n Saves have pharmacies, not all Pick ‘n Save’s have wine and spirits departments. It is our opinion that it still maintains the spirit of the code although they are not separate businesses they are separate profit centers for the store and housed in separate areas of the store. We have tried to keep those two signs to the minimal size we are not trying to advertise these departments from Ryan Road we just simply want people to know that they are there as they enter the business that’s why the letters are only 24” tall. Mr. Johnson stated that all the signs are individual letters they are internally illuminated with LED lighting.
Mayor Bolender asked the sign as it stands is how big per letter. Mr. Johnson stated the Pick ‘n Save letters themselves the P is 6’4” tall the lower case letters are 44” tall. He stated the sign is 216 square feet. The Mayor asked about the pharmacy and wine and spirits sign. Mr. Johnson explained both signs are 24” letters the overall length of the pharmacy sign is 9’10-1/2”. The overall length of the wine and spirits sign is 13’9”. The Mayor asked Jeff what the allowable is. Jeff explained the Pick ‘n Save could be 100 square feet the other signs without the variance they would not be able to have them. Commissioner Dickmann stated that he did look at the store at 76th and Rawson and the one across the street. He stated that the signs look like the ones he is proposing. He stated that from that from that standpoint it would fit the storefront.
Commissioner Correll stated that they have the Supersaver issue on the agenda. So where we are telling them they can only have 100 square feet so I guess I want to be conscious that whatever precedent we are setting, maybe its good timing for the next people coming up with the changing of façade.
Mayor stated that that we are setting a precedent here, I give it to you, you give it to everybody. One rule fits all.
Mr. Johnson stated he understands, he has been doing this for 23 years and that is the main concern of every commission he has ever talked to. Mayor Bolender stated he can understand the “Pick ‘n Save” with the distance back. If you were closer I would say no, but the pharmacy and wine and spirits to me they are not going to make or break your business. Pick ‘n Save is known as a food store not a wine center.
Mr. Johnson stated that when they started limiting signage on the buildings about 5 years ago we found that there was a very distinct impact on our business in the pharmacy and wine and spirits area and when we went back to those stores and put up a wine and spirit and pharmacy sign the business was right back where it was projected to be so although it’s hard to come here and present that as a hardship to you people it has a very direct impact on the business so all the stores we did and there was probably about a dozen in that 5 year span that we left it off, we have come back now and put them back up again.
Commissioner Jackson mentioned Target and how much larger Target is, is that 200 square feet. Jeff didn’t know off hand but its somewhere around a 100-200, and another example is the board of appeals recently granted a similar size variance for the new Office Max that is coming in next to Kohl’s. They were granted a similar variance because they were set back so far from the right-of-way. Commissioner Jackson stated that he feels Pick ‘n Save seems to fit in with what we have done, it’s the two extra signs that I am a little concerned about but again that concern is not very large in my mind, in fact again it is set way back, the people reading it from the street, having a sign that size and alerting to that seems to fit into what you feel works for getting people to come in.
Mr. Johnson stated that they have tried hard to limit signage to the bare bones and still accomplish the mission. The overall design theme that Pick ‘n Save has been trying to follow for the last five years has been a lot cleaner look than it used to be.
Commissioner Peterson stated that what makes the difference here is the distance from the street and to tell you the truth 24” sign isn’t very big when you are 495 feet away.
Commissioner Correll stated just to bring up the Target one once again, if we seem like a variance it sounds like we pretty much will allow it if it’s a certain size building so I don’t know why its really a variance. Second question we have a couple separate businesses within that Target that I would assume we are setting a precedent for them to comeback and ask for signs, if I were them, I would sure be here.
Commissioner Dickmann asked about the Tri City Bank. Mr. Johnson stated there will be a Tri City sign on this building. It is a separate business, so we don’t need a variance. It’s not going to be any larger than the wine and spirits or pharmacy sign.
Mr. Johnson explained that there will be no separate entrances for the pharmacy, wine and spirits or bank. Just one main entrance.
Mayor Bolender stated that in his personal opinion he does not like the pharmacy or wine and spirits sign because it is going to open the flood gates. The Pick ‘n Save he does not have a problem with that.
Jeff explained that they need to open the floor up to anyone in the audience.
Donald Schatzen, 9310 S. 8th Street, stated he agrees with the Mayor but thought the Pick ‘n Save sign could be reduced at bit.
No one else stepped up, the Mayor called three times...
Commissioner Dickmann asked about the ground sign and if there were any possibility of putting pharmacy and wine and spirits and not putting it on the building. Mr. Johnson stated that would be a possibility.
Commissioner Correll motioned to close the public hearing. Peterson second. All voted aye. Public hearing closed.
Commissioner Correll motioned to approve the requested variance to increase maximum limit of the wall sign from 100 square feet to the proposed 216 square feet Pick ‘n Save sign on the south elevation. Commissioner Grabowski second. And that we deny approval of any additional wall signs for the internal businesses specifically pharmacy and wine and spirits signs not be approved at the Pick ‘n Save building. Second concurs. All voted aye.
Jeff stated that they will be sent a notice that their wall signs were denied. John Barth stated that before the hearing is closed he would like to tell the appellant he may file a challenge in the circuit court and that they must do so in 30 days.
Plan Review for Oak Creek Centre Façade Improvements
8419 S. Howell Avenue
Tax Key No. 828-9009
Jeff Fortin explained that the applicant is returning from the July 26, 2005 meeting where the Plan Commission held this item and instructed the applicant to reduce the EIFS on the building and consider renovating the façade of the former Sentry store. The applicant has replaced the EIFS on five (5) areas of the façade with the peaked roofs with brick and extended the brick piers on these areas to the roofline. The applicant will not be doing any façade improvements to the former Sentry store. They would prefer to wait and see what kind of tenant they can get for that space and do renovations based on their needs. The plans also show the project in two phases. At the last meeting the Plan Commission indicated they wanted these renovations done in one phase, so that is one of the conditions of approval that staff is recommending.
Staff recommendation is the Commission approves the building façade improvements subject to the following conditions:
Commissioner Grabowski asked if they met with the alderman of the district regarding the requests from the last plan commission meeting. They indicated that they met with Alderman Foeckler. Commission Jackson asked for clarification on the phases.
Commissioner Foeckler motioned to approve the building façade improvements subject to the following conditions:
1. Only one wall sign per tenant is allowed and individual signs are limited to a maximum of 100 feet.
2. That the project is completed in one phase instead of the two phases proposed.
All voted aye. Motioned approved.
Presentation on the South 27 th Street Access Management Plan
Jeff explained that this was a presentation and that there would be no action taken.
Plan Commission Consultation
8100, 8240, 8268 S. 27th Street
810-9977-001, 810-9976 and 810-9975-001
Jeff explained to the Commission that the applicant is returning from the June 14, 2005 Plan Commission meeting with another set of revisions to the Colonial Woods (formerly Laurel Woods) condominium development. The new revisions include the following:
Staff has identified some concerns with this conceptual layout. The Fire Department has indicated that the dead end streets would need to be modified to meet the City’s standards. If possible the southern entrance drive should be aligned with the median cut and the road to the west. The Engineering Department has indicated they are unsure if the stormwater management plan will work. They also would need to determine the grade of the wetlands and show the appropriate protective areas. Planning staff also would like the applicant to consider moving the westernmost buildings near the entrances further away from S. 27th Street. All of these concerns will be addressed when the applicant returns for site, building, and landscaping review. At this time the applicant is only seeking Plan Commission comments on their conceptual plan.
Mr. Robert Patch, CEO of Heartland Development introduced Mike Peterson, President and Tom Gibes, Sales Manager. Mr. Patch gave a brief overview of their project. He explained that the site now consists of 61 acres of land which includes 15 acres of woods and 11 acres of wetlands. This plan is at 6.8 units per acre. The density is calculated and the woods are in the calculations but the wetlands are out. He stated that they have changed the concept and upgraded to a much higher quality community. He explained that they would have a club house much like a private country club and that they would entertain having a gated community. The four family buildings have been increased in size, the garage doors go to the side and they have basements. The sixteen family buildings have underground parking and garages, two cars per unit. The eight family is similar to the sixteen family. The buildings overlook the wetlands and we are preserving all the woods. They are proposing to preserve and deeded to the City the (woods). He explained that they have a project exactly like this in Jackson. He showed the Plan Commission a virtual tour DVD on what the project would look like.
Mike Peterson stated that at the neighborhood meeting there were two issues that came up more than once. The issues were the density and perseveration of the woods. He stated that the buildings are 80 to 90 feet or twice the size of the council room away from the woods.
Commissioner Grabowski asked how did they plan on putting the road through.(The public road from Apple Creek Farms to their private road in Colonial Woods).Mr. Peterson stated that the neighbors were pretty adamant that they did not want the road to go through. They were open for suggestions. She asked if they thought the small ponds would be adequate for stormwater. Mr. Peterson stated that this was just conceptual and they would have to look into that further. Alderman Grabowski asked why they would put the club house along 27th Street. Mr. Peterson stated because it was such an attractive building. Alderman Grabowski asked with the eight and sixteen family buildings why they would want to live in a gated community. She also stated she checked with the Engineering Department to scale the building and they are about 20 feet in-between the buildings, so she disagreed with the 80 to 90 feet. She indicated that the buildings are right on top of another and that they should consider taking one or two buildings out.
Commissioner Foeckler summed up the meeting last night and that people were happy to see the woods are being preserved that there is not an access point through to 20th Street. There was some concern as to how close some of the buildings were to the woods and the density.
Commissioner Dickmann asked about the parcel to the south. Mr. Patch stated that he could not speak to that; he was hoping that it could have been developed under one large PUD. Commissioner Correll asked the juggling act of numbers and you can lose one or two, and we wanted to achieve getting the woods preserved which were does that end, right now it is on the table to donate or deed that land over to the City, where does the juggling end up where that is not going to on the table. Mr. Patch stated that there were a lot of games played with the woods for a long time and there have been a lot of different things happening with the woods. He stated that if he can get duplexes in here and try to pull a sixteen family out or get green space in here, if I can’t, it will jeopardize something.
Mayor Bolender said the density is too dense and get rid of some buildings and with all these people you have no parking. Mr. Patch stated that this was a concept plan and we are not showing driveways coming between the buildings. The encroachment into the woods is not acceptable and he did not like the sixteen family buildings. He would like to see higher quality.
Norb Theine, 1404 Fairview, South Milwaukee, stated that he was not invited to the informational meeting and had he been invited he would not have gone because it was probably an illegal meeting. Public policy discussed, under Wisconsin law its an open meeting it is subject to that. It should be discussed here, publicly meeting, properly noticed. Mayor Bolender responded by saying Mr. Foeckler had a meeting. Mr. Foeckler was there with the neighbors, it was not an illegal meeting. Commissioner Foeckler stated he assumed he was on the invite list. Mr. Theine stated that he was not. Commissioner Grabowski asked if owns the land known as Colonial Woods. Mr. Theine described he owns what was described here as the undeveloped land between Apple Creek Subdivision…Commissioner Grabowski stated do you own the lands to the north? Do you own those lands to the north where these gentlemen…Mr. Theine, no I do not. He stated that Laurel Woods was on the agenda, it was on the agenda for June 14 and I stopped here at City Hall last week, and I was given incorrect information. Because at the June 14th meeting, there was no alternative plan submitted for consideration by this body. There was a notice on the door that said it was withdrawn, he stated that he stayed to see if there was to be any other action and at the direction of the Mayor the matter was held over and it’s never returned to the agenda as old business. Jeff Fortin stated that was incorrect we did plan the tape for you where it was withdrawn by the applicant. Mr. Theine stated Jeff did not give him the right part of the tape. We played the tape…Mr. Theine stated the notice was on the door and that he checked with a number of people who were going to come to this meeting and I am sure there are some in this room that came to the door and turned around and went home on June 14. Mr. Fortin stated the matter was not discussed at that meeting. Mr. Theine, it was not discussed. Mr. Fortin that is why the note was on the door. Mr. Theine stated as it is represented in this report is not correct. So anyway that is just another technical issue. You cannot review these lands without reviewing the lands in-between, they are not going to just stay there and disappear if that’s what has been presented to the neighbors that are not going to happen. These lands that you are discussing here tonight are not even zoned for any of these purposes. The easterly 20 acres of lands that I own are zoned Rm-1, (multifamily) have been for several years. The lands on the west side are zoned B-4, (highway business) your plans say something else. It is to the point now and I prefer, I’m getting the message by this not being proposed for development and no coordination between the sites being proposed I think there must be some intent that the lands that I own remain B-4, and I am ok with that. There is all kinds of interest for commercial development and I think much of it would be beneficial to the City. It may not be quite as nice to see to someone of the adjoining owners and that’s why I allowed the discussion of the residential to go forward. I went through this once before south of Honadel Blvd.
I was never happy with that change in zoning to allow that development to go ahead but there was consensus that that was better in relation to that development at that time. So I was willing to let that go ahead but I don’t know if I am anymore. Now the idea of the woods they are not giving you the woods and if I were proposing this plan I would not be giving you that woods, it is absolutely a trade off it’s a density transfer to the developable part of the site and that part very frankly makes sense you are going to hear all kinds of professional planners talk about that concept as a way of preserving the sensitive environmental areas, there is nothing wrong with that but don’t think for the first moment think someone is giving something away. I can’t afford to give away lands and they can’t afford to give away lands, but there is a solution for it, now maybe there has to be some public acquisitions maybe there has to be some formula worked out where it does become practical to do it. Now very frankly, Mr. Patch is correct two years this has been in the process, we went through this whole corridor study, the corridor study and sub area plan as far as I am concerned is beginning to implode. Commissioner Foeckler, not true. Mr. Theine, nothing happening on the Oak Creek side. Commissioner Foeckler, not true, don’t mislead the public that is here. Mr. Theine, I see it imploding. I’m telling you what I see and observing, there is absolutely nothing happening on the Oak Creek side of the street it is all taking place on the Franklin side and as the Mayor addressed earlier when DOT was talking that’s absolutely correct. Commissioner Grabowski …Mayor Bolender, you finish your statement. Mr. Theine, thank you. My request at this time and here is what I intend to do because my lands are not going to go away. I want the time now to prepare a plan for using the services of a good planning consultant, I need a period of time in which interview and select just as you go through the process for interviewing and selecting consultants, I want someone to take a look at the City’s plan I don’t want to see it implode. Well I’m sorry... Commissioner Foeckler, go and hire who ever you want. Mr. Theine, you took the time away from me, I now want this matter held over at least for a period of 45 to 60 days so I have time to go out and select and get some body to we can have coordination of development. I can’t even begin to believe that the fire department, you are talking about a layout on this plan here tonight that does not even interconnect the fire protection system. You have a six million dollar water reservoir standing there and not even a thought of interconnection.
Mayor Bolender, Mr. Theine I understand how you feel about this and I heard your plan and every plan for 27th Street in the last hundred years. What I am trying to get across to you, 1. you made an incorrect assumption that nothing is happening on 27th Street, there is a concern that says that and we are the only game in town, that’s not true anymore. No. 2, Mr. Foeckler and I have worked on 27th Street there are things happening on 27th Street there are inquires on 27th Street. This plan that these gentlemen showed us tonight is basically a consultation. This is not a meeting where we are going to make a judgment call and vote on anything. Your land can be looked at by us all we want, we can look at it all we want, as long as we aren’t doing any action on your land. We are talking about their land, not your land. Whatever your land has to offer, whatever plan you come up with will be reviewed at the proper time. Mr. Theine, there has to be coordination between these properties or you have lost the whole purpose of the planning. Mayor Bolender, this coordination, the more people you get into a circle the bigger the circle gets the more out of control it gets, he comes up with a plan it’s got some failures, it got some great points, that is what we are reviewing here tonight, not your land, not how its going to be affected, were not having a motion to say go ahead it’s wonderful. We had the people hear that listen to the plan Monday night and so this whole conversation is getting to the point where you are telling us we can’t think unless we think with nine people in a room.
Mr. Theine, I haven’t heard any discussion until Mr. Dickmann made one comment about what is going to happen with the land in between.
Mayor Bolender, when a plan comes before us, we will do the same thing. A consultation on it.
Commission Foeckler, Mr. Theine I can understand you are bitter because you had a deal fall through that would have made you a lot of money, but that is not our fault, I mean that is not our fault for you to take that bitterness and try to convert it some how putting a negative spin on the 27th Street plan. It has no foundation and shows a lack of creditability in all honesty when you use that bitterness to try and attack a bigger project than what affects your individual land, it really brings into question creditability so I would ask you to refrain from doing that. Secondly, what you do with your land I will gladly entertain, I’ll work with you I represent that area, I will work with you and try and get something in there.
Mr. Theine, I would request for time for me to prepare that plan.
Commission Foeckler, you can do whatever you want, but that’s not going to have an affect on what happens to the north of you. I don’t know what’s going to happen to the north of you, I don’t know if I would even vote for what is being proposed to the north of you. What happens between private individuals and developments, the City does not have any control over.
Mr. Theine, I agree, I’m the neighbor.
Commissioner Foeckler, you should have had an invitation to the meeting last night.
Commissioner Grabowski, the comments you made about Mr. Patch, I believe approximately about a year ago you were standing here giving us the same type of scenario with the woodlands as far with the trade off. My understanding was you were the owner of these lands that were formally known as Laurel Woods, correct sir, didn’t you own those lands.
Mr. Theine, I still do.
Commissioner Grabowski, Ok I know it’s not Laurel Woods, I know that it’s called Colonial Woods. But I just don’t want the public misled thinking that even these maybe two individual properties the reason I asked that question earlier in regards to the private street connecting with the city street, because I knew you were the owner of those lands and what I’m trying to find out is if you are willing to have discussions with these individual as far as what is going to transpire because when there was a neighbor meeting I guess it was everybody’s understanding that you were part of that discussion because you were also part of that development correct.
Mr. Theine, since we are now going to have separate plans, absolutely will talk to Heartland, that is not a problem at all, that is not an issue, but I think you just hit upon an important point, there is two major ownerships of the wooded area. I own the south end and it in the formal plans by Milwaukee County as referred to as the Honadel Woods. The north part which they have under contract now is the Esch Woods, formally designated currently owned mainly by the Phillips family. They have under contact the Phillips portion we have to south portion.
Commission Foeckler, you are the one that brought the plan in for your land that put buildings all through the woods, correct.
Mr. Theine, no.
Commission Foeckler, who brought that forward.
Mr. Theine, Heartland (inaudible)
Commissioner Foeckler, I think that was before Heartland, there was what’s his name I can’t remember, he is from a law firm. He came in and presented a plan, I think he works at Whyte, Hirsch.., came in and presented a plan with duplexes that basically went throughout your land.
Mr. Theine, Well I don’t know.
Commissioner Foeckler, come on.
Mr. Theine, it was not that firm.
Commissioner Foeckler, a different firm, fine.
Mr. Theine, Oh I think I know who you are referring to. I can’t remember his name it was so long ago.
Commissioner Foeckler, But anyways you brought a plan before that would put building throughout the woods.
Mr. Theine, yes.
Commissioner Foeckler, ok, your comment before, Heartland is really there is not giving the woods away they’re looking for density up front, and I agree. Like I said early on I’m pragmatic I understand there has to be some give and take to keep those woods. I think the problem that we were seeing is when your land was in the mix was that you never put that on the table or my understanding that was never on the table, you basically wanted to double dip. You wanted the density up front but then you wanted to sell off the woods and the land.
Mr. Theine, now you better be careful of how you say that because what you just said is totally incorrect and I like…
Commissioner Foeckler, the woods were never on the table.
Mr. Theine, I would like you go back and read the letter I submitted to you in which I outlined the history of all the stuff I have taken over a seven-year period before you were ever an alderman. The last ditch effort that failed at that time and that’s the only reason I allowed that plan to even come in. Now, we have other people here again reopening the hopes of saving the woods. But I have worked for years before you were in office, starting at that time. That is all outlined in that letter that was sent to you a number of months ago.
Mayor Bolender, I would suggest Mr. Theine that get your plan together and give us a view of it.. Because you came up here and it’s… these gentlemen a plan, we had some disagreements on it, that’s fine. You don’t have a plan, it’s undeveloped, if you have one show it to us.
Mr. Theine, the reason I want to start over is because very frankly I think they submitted a plan that doesn’t conform to the corridor sub area plan.
Commissioner Foeckler, the plan you submitted before though when your land was in it did?
Mr. Theine, I want, I want, I seriously want to go back…
Commissioner Foeckler, I don’t understand that, the plan was submitted when your land was part of that, you would have sold your land, did conform to the…
Mr. Theine, it conformed in one respect and I think what you are telling them is that it didn’t conform in all respects. They met the density standard of 10 to 12 which is in your plan, but they have not met the design standards. That’s what you’re telling them.
Mayor Bolender, basically this was a concept meeting and they showed us what they thought was a good idea, we told them what we thought was a good idea. Now they can go back and rehash this thing. This has gotten to be a personal thing and we really don’t want it to be that. If you have a plan in mind then show it to us.
Mr. Theine, then I’m going to put my faith in the Plan Commission that you are going to allow the time to have that plan prepared and we will submit it. That you will consider making sure there is coordination.
Commissioner Foeckler, I don’t think there has to be coordination. In fact I heard from the neighbors that they don’t want the traffic coming down into the Apple Creek Area.
Mike Tomrell, 8300 S. 27th Street, stated that he was not invited to the party and that he was the first house south of the land and that he had concerns regarding Forest Hill Avenue.
Rosemarie Annonson, 3920 E. Ryan Road, asked about the senior apartments and why are we not developing parts of the woods. Mayor Bolender explained it was one of the last stands of the beach trees.
Plan Commission consultation – New Carrollville Condominiums
3845 E. American Avenue
Tax Key No. 869-9948
The applicant is requesting Plan Commission review a conceptual plan for the New Carrollville Condominium development. The applicant has provided two conceptual layouts. One layout has 12 four-unit buildings and 28 two-unit buildings for a total of 98 units (4.4 dwelling units per acre). The second layout has 22 four-unit buildings and 15 two-unit buildings for a total of 118 units (5.3 dwelling units per acre). Each of the proposals would preserve over 70 percent open space. The applicant has also included some conceptual elevation drawings of the two types of buildings that are proposed.
Staff has reviewed these conceptual plans and has a few concerns. The Engineering Department has indicated that the applicant will need DNR approval to have the stormwater management ponds within the wetlands boundaries. They will also need to determine the grade of the wetlands, which could impact the building locations, depending on the required protective areas. In order to meet the Fire Department’s requirements the development will require two (2) points of access. They are currently proposing access from E. Ryan Road on the south and E. American Avenue on the north, which meets the access requirements. These items will all have to be addressed when the applicant returns with site, building, and landscaping review.
The applicant has been working with the Department of Natural Resources on an environmental remediation plan to address some of the contaminated soils on this property. The DNR has conditionally approved their remediation plan (letter attached).
Alderman Mike Toman has indicated to staff that he would like to hold a neighborhood informational meeting prior to the applicant applying for rezoning of this property.
Jeff explained since this is a conceptual plan there will be no action and no staff recommendation.
Brain Kleismet, Landscape Architects Inc, explained that he has been hired by the developers of the project to study the land and develop a master plan to bring in for conceptual presentation to the Plan Commission and to the neighbors who show up to begin the lengthy process of trying to develop something on this land. It has taken us 3-1/2 years to get to this point because it is a very complex site. As the planner noted there are environmental conditions on the site that render the soils extremely contaminated and we have had to work with environmental consultants we had to work with the DNR in order to develop a plan that they would approve before we even begin to attach developing the site. We have done that and gone through the process and we have spent the money. Question from audience what is it contaminated with? It is contaminated with coal tars and we have our environmental consultants who can explain what they are. We had the developer remediation plan that the DNR would approve before we even began any planning. After we created that plan and got what we would call conceptual approval then we started to study the actual physical dimensions and the aspects of the site. We paid to have all the wetlands delineated we looked at the surrounding neighborhood from the Flynn neighborhood single family housing to the railroad and future access out to Ryan Road. We looked at the vegetation and the orientation of the site in regards to sun, wind, shade all the environmental factors that would have an affect on the project, we did a preliminary study of the stormwater management so that we could determine how detention ponds that would be required to hold the water for any development and then we went into the market study. He stated that they are coming in with a plan that is a mix of four family condo units that would be in the 1300-1400 square foot range that would sell over $200,000 and some duplex site and would be around 1100-1200 square feet that would sell in the $179,000-189,000 range so we think we are meeting what the market is demanding. Our plan calls for 118 units on the site, but we counter that by having 73% of the site dedicated to open space. Granted much of that land in the open space would have had to been dedicated anyway because there is quite a bit of wetlands on site. We have been able to carve out an open space system that utilizes the wetlands in conjunction with other lands that we will develop as small mini neighborhood parks. What we are proposing is to develop two 4 to 4-1/2 acre park sites which will be private park sites and the developer would pay for the improvements within those parks as well as pay for the long term management. We have created this conservation design concept with expansive wetlands and open space; we have also been able to create a nice setting for our development to sit in. Mr. Kliesmet explained the layout to the Plan Commission and added that they are not trying to build this as an up scaled environment we are actually trying to build something that is very compatible with the single family in the Flynn neighborhood. We don’t want to feel separate from the neighborhood we want to be part of it. The people in this room would be neighbors to the people we would sell to.
Jim Annunziato 9254 S. Annette Place stated he moved in last year and asked if they would be putting up a retaining wall. Mr. Kleismet stated that any screening that they would be doing would be trees.
Commissioner Foeckler asked if their unit per acre count the wetlands area was part of the calculation, or are the wetlands taken out. Mr. Kleismet stated that there unit per acre 5 units per acre and it does include the wetlands. Commissioner Foeckler stated so it is much higher, my calculation unit per acre its developable acre and you can’t build on wetlands so I’m curious as to how much wetlands there is on the area. The developer before was proposing 6.8 units per developable acre taking out the wetlands. Are you saying its five units per acre taking out the wetlands you probably higher? Commissioner Foeckler asked if he knew the acreage of wetlands on there. Mr. Kleismet stated no, but maybe 8 acres.
Commissioner Grabowski asked if they could meet the 50-foot setbacks from the wetlands. Mr. Kleismet stated that they would not get the project approved unless they met the setbacks. Jeff Fortin stated that there are different setbacks depending on the quality of the wetlands.
Commissioner Grabowski asked if the City had a copy of the remedial action plan? She referenced a letter from the State of Wisconsin from July 25, 2005 and stated that they should have had an informational meeting first and then bring your project to this body. She sensed from the residents that they have some genuine concerns that the 300 foot notification may not have been met, she does not find fault with Planning, people buy and sell properties so there may be valid reasons. She also stated that from site calculations they show four families at 12, 2 families at 28 that would be a total of 40, how do we come up with 98. Mr. Kleismet stated that they have 118. We had two plans, one showed 98 units and one was 118.
Mayor Bolender stated that he grew up in that area and stated that he did not do his homework in regards to what was buried back there. The Mayor stated that this was a fishing trip and that the property was zoned Rs-4 and that the neighbors would probably like to see those in there than 118 condos in here. The whole thing is just density. What is with this condo thing now we are going to do low end condos next to the railroad tracks. Let’s hire 5 more cops and I’ll get some fire fighters and we will have a regular riot going here. What is the matter with Oak Creek? Where is the L on our heads that says bring that to Oak Creek because he will take it. Well we are not taking it anymore, I’m sick of this. Why don’t we bring quality to Oak Creek, why don’t you put homes in there, the people would love it but no we are going with condo and I know where that is going. I have enough problems with the City the way it is and I look at low income, low income, low this low that.
Mr. Kleismet, Mayor with all due respect.
Mayor Bolender, don’t use that phrase with me.
Mr. Kleismet, well people that live in condos that sell for $189,000 are quality people and that is the way we look at it. I understand your point this is not 27th Street, it is up against a railroad track, we believe $189,000 to 229,000 is very compatible with the area in terms of the pricing structure. Condominiums are put in here because we know that single-family housing will not work because of the amount of money we would have to spend to remedial the site.
Mayor Bolender, there is a lot of nice people that live in that area, I know a lot of them and when you say this site is just not quite… I ought to take offense to that.
Mr. Kleismet, I don’t know what you are referring to, I don’t want to argue with you either, I learned that from the last meeting. I agree with what you are saying, but our point is we believe these are quality units. Just because they are selling for $189’s to $229’s does not mean we are bring in bad elements into the area, we think there is a lot of quality people that would like to live there. That is why we are here.
Paul Mulock, 8900 S. Chicago Road, if they put this development in they are going to cut right into my new back yard, my acre and a half. They are going to take it and put an easement in there. I paid $300,000 for that and I don’t need some low-income people behind me.
Commissioner Grabowski stated that is a question she wanted to ask the developer. She asked if they gained any right of way in regards to the property that would be directly next to Ms. Annonson’s property on Ryan Road. And if you could address the concern of Mr Mulock in regards to that.
Mr. Kleismet stated that they do not have an easement worked out at this point in time.
Alderman Toman stated that this was in his district. He stated that he wanted a neighborhood meeting. It didn’t work out that way; I didn’t get notice on this until Friday. Late Friday. With all due respect to the Planning Commission this really should not be up here tonight. I wanted a neighborhood meeting, we could have saved some time and I was not approached by the developer on this and I take, that is not the way it should of went. OK the way you have this planned out here is fine from a development standpoint. You can make money on this, you have some high density in here, this is good for the developer, but this does not work for the neighbors and this plan should not be here tonight. No. 1 this is Rs-4 OK so we are not even close as far as something like this going through the zoning would have to change, nobody is going to agree to that. It’s not going to happen. Another point, all the neighbors were not notified. There are two different proposals on the table for these condos, two different densities, as Al Foeckler said before, I believe even the ponds are part of your configuration of your 70%. Ponds and wetlands, I walked this land I have seen the wetland delineation there are yellow flags all over the place, this thing is loaded with wetlands. You can’t see that on here because it is convoluted.
Commissioner Foeckler stated that when you take the wetlands out it’s about 8.2 units an acre.
Alderman Toman stated that there has been illegal fill dumped back there within the last year. I called City Hall and had engineering put a stop on it. There was fill being brought into this property. There is a ton of contamination back there. When you say coal tar, I checked into it. There are benzyl compounds in the ground back there. Benzene is one of the worst chemicals known to man. That is sitting on that property, that’s been back there for forty years. I have this DNR letter before me and paragraph 2 and I think you have copies of that letter up there. It says the proposed RAP which is the remedial action plan that the DNR supposedly approves of which is only verbal. I’m reading from the second paragraph involves the following components, excavation of almost 2500 cubic yards of fill material in letter B consolidation and relocation of fill material on site. That’s ridiculous, your gonna excavate 2500 square yards and spread it around. That is what that says. That’s ridiculous. How the DNR could even think of this plan being a working plan is amazing to me. OK I have some other points too. We talked about the zoning; I think the neighbors would be open to development back there that makes sense in the Rs-4 respect. As far as I’m concerned that land is undevelopable. If you can’t make money on it, these condos aren’t going to go. That is pretty much what I have to say.
Schatzen, east side Carrollville area, asked about the parks, and who would be liable for the ponds.
Mayor Bolender stated this needs a neighbor meeting and that he is totally dead against this density and whole thing. I could not even think of anything other than Rs-4 and basically I would like to see ½ acre lots and houses in there. Mike if you can set up a meeting.
Conditions and Restrictions – Southfield Apartments Expansion
6871, 6883 and 6955 S. 13th Street
Tax Key No. 736-9000-004, 736-9000-003 and 736-8998-001
Jeff Fortin explained at the July 12, 2005 meeting, the Plan Commission recommend that the Common Council grant a conditional use for the properties at 6871, 6883, and 6955 S. 13th Street to allow for multi-family residential buildings in excess of four (4) dwelling units per building. The Plan Commission has worked with the applicant to reduce the overall density and number of buildings. The conditions and restrictions limit the number of buildings to eight (8) and the maximum number of dwelling units to 64.
If the Commission is comfortable with these conditions and restrictions the appropriate action would be to recommend that the Council adopt them as part of the conditional use permit.
Commissioner Dickmann asked the club house being an additional building and should that be added as the ninth building. Jeff stated that they could add that to allow it. Jeff stated that he would add that to 1. J C & R’s.
Commissioner Dickmann motioned that the Plan Commission recommend to the Common Council that the attached conditions and restrictions with the inclusion in 1. J. that the club house be included with the conditional use permit for the properties 6871, 6883 and 6955 S. 13th Street. Commissioner Grabowski second. All voted aye. Motion passed.
Plan Review - Faith Baptist Church
8519 S. 13th Street
830-9990
On September 17, 2002, a portion of this property was rezoned from Rs-3, Single Family Residential to I-1, Institutional to accommodate the future construction of this church and school. A portion of the property retained the Rs-3 zoning. The Common Council, with the consent of the church, directed staff to initiate a zoning change to rezone the Rs-3 portion of the church property to P-1, Park District with a conditional use for a private park. On November 4, the Council rezoned the Rs-3 portion to P-1 and granted the conditional use.
The applicant is now requesting Plan Commission approval of site, building, and landscaping plans for Faith Baptist Church and school. The use of this property as a church and a school is a permitted use in the I-1, Institutional zoning district. The building meets all of the height and building setbacks and lot coverage requirements for this zoning district. The maximum height of a building in the I-1 district is 55 feet. The steeple of this building will be eighty (80) feet high. Since it is considered an architectural projection, it may exceed the maximum height limit. The main portion of the building will be forty-three 43 feet in height.
There will 127 parking spaces provided, including 10 spaces for bus parking at the west side of the building. The plans show that the area to the west of the school would be surfaced with gravel. The Ordinance requires that all parking and driveways are concrete or asphalt and the applicant has agreed to surface all parking areas with asphalt pavement.
There is an officially mapped street that would connect this property to W. Puetz Road. The church will likely create a second point of access to the south if the property to the south is ever developed. Staff is requesting that the applicant revise the final grading plan to accommodate a future driveway in this location.
The building will feature brick, split-face block and EIFS with asphalt shingles. The applicant will bring material samples and a color rendering of the building to the meeting.
In terms of church operations, the church will have three (3) full time employees. The Badger Baptist School will operate from September through May and will employ twelve (12) people, four (4) part-time and eight (8) full-time. The applicant has provided a schedule of the Church and School operations (attached).
Staff recommends that the Commission approves the site, building, and landscaping plans for Faith Baptist Church, subject to the following conditions:
Eldon Shorey, architect with Christopher Kidd and Associates, stated they did not look at the lighting to see if it affects the school. The Mayor stated that it would be nice if they could work together with the lighting. Mr. Shorey stated that it would be feasible. Jeff Fortin stated that we could work with them to make sure that all works together.
Commissioner Jackson asked how much EIFS was being used. Mr. Shorey stated 22%.
Commissioner Peterson motioned that the Plan Commission approve the site, building and landscaping plans for Faith Baptist Church subject to the following conditions.
Commissioner Grabowski second. All voted aye. Motion approved.
Final Plat for Carrollville Crossings Subdivision
8781 and 8731 S. 5th Avenue
865-9977-001 and 865-9999
This final plat will create 52 lots in the Rs-3 Single-Family Residential zoning districts. The preliminary plat was approved on October 13, 2003 and the final plat substantially conforms to the preliminary plat. The public improvements have been certified as complete by the Engineering Department, the Streets Department, and the Water and Sewer Utility. Therefore, the plat can be presented to the Plan Commission for recommendation to the Common Council.
The final plat shows S. Carrollville Circle as a north-south Street and as an east-west street. The applicant will need to change the name of the east-west portion of this road to either E. Carrollville Circle or some other name that reflects the correct street direction prior to recording.
That the Commission recommends to the Common Council that the final plat for the Carrollville Crossings subdivision be approved subject to the following conditions:
1. That any technical corrections are made prior to recording
2. That the portion of S. Carrollville Circle that runs east-west is renamed to E. Carrollville Circle or another name.
Mayor Bolender asked Jeff if Doug talked to him in regards to his concern that he and Mayor reviewed on this. Jeff stated no. Mayor asked they were addressed. Jeff stated he was not aware of the concerns. Mayor stated that Doug had brought some concerns that we had talked about and he had a meeting with Kaerek.
Dan Pelon, Kaerek Builders stated that they had a meeting with Wayne, Doug and Dusty. The Mayor asked Dusty if they were all addressed. Dusty stated that he was in and out of the meeting and could not answer. Dan stated that it was setbacks and garages and he believes Doug does have the letter stating that it was put into the restrictions.
Commissioner Correll motioned that the Plan Commission recommend to the Common Council that the final plat for Carrollville Crossing be approved subject to the following conditions:
1. That any technical corrections are made prior to recording.
2. That the portion of S. Carrollville Circle that runs east-west is renamed to E. Carrollville Circle or another name.
Commissioner Grabowski seconds. All voted aye. Motion passed.
Mayor Bolender stated that he has a message for Dan he should ask Mr. Kaerek if he could build him some better houses in Oak Creek up the quality, he would really appreciate that. Dan stated that there will be some very nice houses in this subdivision. The Mayor stated that he needs quality in this City and I’m not getting through, I‘m going to have to go to step three of being a jerk and that is a really ugly thing. Dan stated that they have some very nice stuff already planned Jenna Prairie. You build some very nice stuff in Franklin.
Zoning Text Amendment – Maximum Floor Area for Office Buildings
Staff is requesting an amendment to Section 17.0313(e)(2) of the City’s Zoning Ordinance. This section restricts the size of office buildings in the B-2, Community Business zoning district to a maximum of 10,000 square feet. However any other permitted use can have a building of up to 60,000 square feet. This amendment would allow offices within the B-2 zoning district to be up to 60,000 square feet. The revised text of Section 17.0313(e)(2) would read:
“The maximum building floor area for any permitted use shall be 60,000 square feet.”
Additionally, this amendment would revise Section 17.0313 (c)(2) which excludes office buildings from receiving conditional use approval for a building in excess of 60,000 feet. The revision would allow office buildings in excess of 60,000 square feet as a conditional use, the same as all other uses in the B-2 zoning district. The revised text of Section 17.0313(c)(2) would read:
“Any permitted use in the B-2 Community Business District with a building area of 60,000 square feet.”
The original text of this Section of the Zoning Ordinance is included with this staff report.
Any changes to the Zoning Ordinance must be reviewed by the Plan Commission. If the Commission supports this Ordinance as written the appropriate action would be to recommend that the Common Council adopt the Ordinance. If the Commission makes any revisions to the proposed ordinance they should be included in the recommendation.
Commissioner Dickmann motioned that they recommend to the Common Council that ordiance Section 17.0313(e)(2) be amended to read “The maximum building floor area for any permitted use shall be 60,000 square feet.” And Section 17.0313 (c)(2) be amended to read “Any permitted use in the B-2 Community Business District with a building area of 60,000 square feet.”
Commissioner Peterson second. All voted aye. Motion approved.
Commissioner Grabowski motioned for adjournment at 10:10 p.m. Commissioner Dickmann second. Meeting adjourned.