MINUTES OF THE OAK CREEK
Mayor Bolender called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. The following Commissioners were present at roll call: Commissioner Dickmann, Commissioner Jackson, Commissioner Marhal, Commissioner Siira, Commissioner Foeckler, Mayor Bolender, Commissioner Kopplin, Commissioner Correll and Commissioner Peterson. Also present were Director of Community Development Douglas Seymour, Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop and Building Commissioner Ed Ciechanowski.
Commissioner Kopplin motioned to approve the minutes of the regular meeting of September 23, 2003. Commissioner Peterson second. Roll call, all voted aye.
There were no significant Common Council Actions to report.
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that Steven and Kathleen Jendusa were requesting that the property at 239 E. College Avenue be rezoned from B-2, Community Business to B-3, Office and Professional Business. Lots within the zoning district must be a minimum of 10,000 square feet with a minimum lot width of 75 feet. This property exceeds those minimum requirements.
Commissioner Kopplin questioned if conditions and restrictions needed to be prepared. Mr. Seymour stated they did not.
Commissioner Kopplin motioned that the Commission recommend to the Common Council that the property at 239 E. College Avenue be rezoned from B-2, community Business to B-3, Office and Professional Business after a public hearing.
Commissioner Siira seconds. Roll call, all voted aye.
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that Ryan Road Storage was requesting Plan Commission approval of a revised site and building plans for 14 buildings of self-storage for the property at 840 W. Ryan Road. The Plan Commission approved the plans for this development on May 27, 2003. One of the conditions of that approval was that the plans were revised to increase the setback along Ryan Road to the previously approved distance of 248 feet. They are requesting that the approval of the Plan Commission be modified to reflect the 154-foot setback.
Commissioner Marhal stated he could see were there was some confusion on the part of Ryan Road Storage after reading the minutes.
Commissioner Dickmann stated it seemed that there was more time spent on what the buildings were going to look like than what the setback was going to be. Even though the report did have the correct footage it was not discussed much during the meeting and can see were the discrepancy occurred. He stated that the Commission should be looking at ways to stop this from occurring in the future.
Mayor Bolender stated the problem was that the letter was sent to the wrong person.
Commissioner Kopplin explained that the letter might have been sent to the wrong person however; the grading and site plans were being correlated with that person. The building pads were not set and she has a problem with approving this item.
Commissioner Correll stated the setbacks were not the focus of the discussion at the May meeting but the focus now should be what is the better answer. He stated he felt it would look better further up on the site.
Commissioner Peterson acknowledges there might have been confusion regarding this matter but has a hard time with the lack of accountability. Nothing should be started before checking all approvals.
Mayor Bolender stated accountability goes both ways.
Commissioner Foeckler stated that the minutes clearly show that Mr. Seymour commented that the buildings should not be pushed forward and Commissioner Kopplin also commented that she did not want them closer to Ryan Road.
Mayor Bolender stated that the Cummins building was very large and near the front of the property and the storage buildings would still be set back further than Cummins. He wanted to know if there was an objection from the Commission to the length of the three buildings that were behind the office area.
Commissioner Dickmann stated that with the size of the Cummins building and the storage buildings it is going to look very crowded from Ryan Road.
Commissioner Marhal stated that the office building was very attractive and the storage areas that face Ryan Road complement the office and he agrees that the Cummins building is to close to Ryan Road. He feels the need to have the storage facility where it is situated at this time to help the aesthetic value of the area and balance out the area.
Mayor Bolender explained if the storage buildings were moved back and cut in half the Cummins building would stick out and be more evident.
Commissioner Dickmann agreed that the storage buildings would balance out the Cummins building.
Commissioner Peterson questioned how this would set precedent with future decisions made by the Commission. Mayor Bolender explained that the precedent that would be set is that the Commission would clarify in its agreements a more clear position. The precedent that will be set would be to not make errors that would put the Commission in this situation. Looking at this in a common sense way the Commission has to be clearer in its direction. We cannot say we can’t do this because we will set a precedent sometimes with responsibility you have to say you screwed up and fix it.
Commissioner Correll wanted to know if there were any other options to consider at this time.
Chuck Koehler, 901 W. Ryan Road, 6th District Alderman, stated a suggestion to the problem would be to break up the two buildings on the west property line. His contention all along was that the buildings were to long. In discussions with Mr. Leffler the solution they came up with would be to put a break in the two buildings.
Mr. Ray Leffler, Ryan Road Storage, explained to the Commission that there were several rooflines because of the pitch going down the hill. He proposed to take out a gap at the second line and put in some plantings to break up the two buildings. Mayor Bolender questioned how big the gap between the buildings would be. Mr. Leffler replied that it would be about twenty feet.
Mayor Bolender questioned how long the building was. Mr. Leffler replied that the building was around 300 feet. Mayor Bolender replied that it would be gapped only 20 feet in all of the 300 feet and wanted to know how many units would be lost if they went another 10 feet and made it a 30-foot gap. Mr. Leffler replied that they would only loose two more and would happily do that.
Mayor Bolender stated that a 20-foot break in a 300-foot building would not do anything.
Commissioner Siira stated that a 30-foot break sounded good. He spoke with Alderman Koehler earlier and if he would be most effected by this development and if he was fine with it then so was Commissioner Siira.
Commissioner Kopplin questioned if the wrought iron fence would be going all the way around the building. Mr. Leffler stated that was correct.
Mr. Jim O’Malley, Ryan Road Storage, explained that the wrought iron fencing was proposed along the south ends of buildings 1, 2 and 3 including adding some brick columns. The wrought iron fence would also go along the west end and at the north end by the pond the slope starts and in the back the fencing would be in the line of the back wall of those buildings. The back wall of buildings 12, 13 and 14 would be the back wall and between buildings 12 and 13 and between buildings 13 and 14 those would be gated so there would be some place to put snow removal. Along the back it would be a cyclone fence. On the east end that is behind the railroad and the fence could not be seen it would also be cyclone. Where it ties into the Cummins fence building number 3 would be a wall and then a shared fence with Cummins would be cyclone. Wherever the fence could be seen it would be the wrought iron and where it could not be seen it would be the cyclone fence.
Commissioner Kopplin questioned if that would meet the Fire Departments requirements. Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop stated the fencing would be acceptable but the slope on the north side of the building sounds questionable. Access is required between Cummins and Ryan Road Storage on the north and east end of the Cummins property. Mr. O’Malley stated there would be a gate for access at that point.
Mayor Bolender questioned driving a truck by the detention pond. Assistant Fire Chief Krudop replied that he expected enough room for ground ladders and hose lines if access was needed.
Mr. O’Malley stated the grading has already been built according to the grading plan and the back of the building has a slope that goes down into the basin of the pond. There is not a shelf area behind the building. Assistant Fire Chief Krudop questioned if it was more or less than three to one. Mr. O’Malley replied that it was not more that three to one. Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop stated he could live with less than three to one.
Commissioner Foeckler stated he did not support the buildings being moved up forward. Page 26 and 27 of the minutes show that Commissioner Siira’s motion was clear he moved subject to the five listed conditions and if you look at the conditions from the May 27, 2003 plan commission report the first condition was the previously approved distance. He also stated that it was clear and that there was no intent to disregard that but the fact is that there is a precedent issue. If a developer chooses not to listen to the motion or take note of the motion whether with intent or without intent it sets a bad precedent to allow something else to happen therefore he does not support approving something that would move the buildings forward. It is curious that the highlighting in the packet is advantageous to the developer. The second part of the motion that is not advantageous is not highlighted. He expressed his concern for the way things were highlighted to be advantageous to the developer.
Mr. Leffler stated that there were consistencies in the objections that the Commission had but that they were just trying to show where they thought some of the confusion could have came in on their part. They were aware that there were people that were not for the project from the beginning.
Commissioner Marhal stated he read the entire transcript not just the highlighted section and he did not get the impression that there was any intent to deceive. Historically Mr. Leffler has been more than accommodating and has done everything the Commission has asked him to do. This project needs to get going and to hold it up on a joint error is not right.
Mr. Seymour stated it comes down to one thing, if the Plan Commissioners would have approved the conditional use permit knowing that the units were that close to Ryan Road then they should vote for the revision. If as Commissioners they feel that they would not have voted for this project with the units that close to Ryan Road then stick with the plan that was originally approved by the Commission.
Commissioner Marhal stated with Cummins being that close to Ryan Road there needs to be a balance and he would vote for it with the current site plan.
Commissioner Marhal motioned that the Commission approve the revised site and building plans for Ryan Road Storage at 840 W. Ryan Road also to include the separation of buildings 1 and 2 with a minimum 30 foot separation.
Commissioner Correll seconds.
Mr. Seymour stated that there needed to be some clarification on the motion before a vote. Commissioner Kopplin had some thoughts with respect to the extent of the wrought iron fencing on the site. So that there is no confusion on the issue the Commission should spell it out in the motion.
Commissioner Kopplin stated the issue was that she though it would be wrought iron fence around the entire building and now they are talking about cyclone fence and it needs to spelled out at this time.
Mr. Leffler explained that the wrought iron fence would be in the front and completely along the west side all the way to the back. The gaps in the back would be wrought iron.
Commissioner Correll stated it would be wrought iron at all exteriors separate from the Cummins site. He also stated it should be in the original motion that the fence be wrought iron on the entire exterior not attached to Cummins.
Commissioner Marhal added that it would be wrought iron fencing around the entire exterior perimeter of the property with no double fencing by the Cummins area cyclone fence.
Commissioner Correll seconds the amended motion.
Roll call, Dickmann aye, Jackson nay, Marhal aye, Siira nay, Foeckler nay, Bolender aye, Kopplin nay, Correll aye, and Peterson nay. The motion fails 5 to 4.
Mr. Seymour explained that a new motion could be made or in the absence of a new motion the approved motion at the last approved site plan would stand.
Mr. Leffler questioned if there would be a distance back that the Plan Commission would accept even if it means taking out additional units. Commissioner Foeckler replied that was determined previously.
Commissioner Dickmann suggested that buildings 1 and 2 be moved back and the caretakers building be put in that place so that it would not look as crowded.
Commissioner Marhal questioned if the Commissioners that voted nay voted nay because of the previous approval or because they did not want to see the building closer to the road.
Commissioner Foeckler replied that it was both reasons. Commissioner Kopplin replied that she voted nay because she did not want to see it up to the front of the site.
Mayor Bolender stated the Cummins building was farther forward and now the storage buildings would be going back and showing more of the Cummins building instead of the office which was designed as a home. What needs to be decided is if you push the storage buildings back and not set a precedent there needs to be some ideas of what to do.
Commissioner Siira liked the idea of pushing the storage buildings back and leaving the office where it was. The number of storage units seams to be what is important to the developer. His concern is having this type of building pushed so close to Ryan Road. He does not think these are going to be very nice looking buildings with the exception of the caretakers quarters. The original concept was to push these as far north as possible.
Mr. Seymour stated that the developer has proposed to put a 30 foot gap in the western most buildings and suggested that instead of the 30-foot gap he pushed the buildings back 30-feet and still maintain the location of the caretakers quarters.
Commissioner Siira stated the caretakers quarters were clearly a much nicer looking building than the rest of the development and liked the suggestion by Mr. Seymour. He would be more than willing to make the compromise.
Commissioner Correll questioned if building 3 would also have to be moved back. Commissioner Siira suggested that building 3 might serve to screen the service doors in the Cummins building.
Mr. Leffler stated he would be okay with moving buildings 1 and 2 back 30-feet and removing the gap, but it was Alderman Koehler who wanted the gap in the buildings.
Alderman Koehler stated that the Commission was getting way off of the original issue. He did not feel that moving it back 30-feet and removing the gap would solve anything. He expressed his concern with the continuous length of the buildings and stated he would like to see the breaks in the buildings.
Commissioner Foeckler stated that the Commission that was siting was the Commission that voted on the original setback. The reason that the buildings were proposed to be moved forward was because they sold a bigger parcel to Cummins and to get as many units as possible they proposed to move the buildings forward to get more units. The Commission voted to keep the buildings at the original setback. The problem was brought on by the developer not the Plan Commission. The Commission has said that the buildings should not be brought forward and now they want to compromise for some reason.
Commissioner Marhal stated he could not believe that this was the same Commission that approved the Cummins building at 127 feet and now are arguing on 154 feet on a building that is dwarfed by the Cummins building.
Commissioner Foeckler replied that the Cummins building is generally a different type building and is not an unattractive storage building.
Commissioner Kopplin motioned to reconsider. Commissioner Siira seconds.
Roll call, Dickmann aye, Jackson aye, Marhal aye, Siira aye, Foeckler nay, Bolender aye, Kopplin aye, Correll aye, and Peterson aye.
Commissioner Marhal motioned that the Commission approve the site and building plans for Ryan Road storage at 840 W. Ryan Road separating buildings 1 and 2 a minimum of 30 feet as discussed and a wrought iron fence be place around the entire exterior perimeter of the lot except where the cyclone fence joins with Cummins.
Commissioner Correll seconds.
Roll call, Dickmann aye, Jackson nay, Marhal aye, Siira aye, Foeckler nay, Bolender aye, Kopplin aye, Correll aye, and Peterson nay.
Motion passed.
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that David and Doreen Schmidt were requesting Plan Commission approval of the preliminary plat for Carrollville Crossing. This property is zoned Rs-3, Single Family Residential. Lots within this zoning district must be a minimum of 12,000 square feet in area with a minimum lot width of 80 feet.
Commissioner Dickmann questioned if the deed restrictions needed to be added as a condition of approval. Mr. Seymour replied it could be added if the Commission wished to do so.
Commissioner Kopplin motioned that the Commission approve the preliminary plat for the Carrollville Crossings subdivision subject to the following conditions:
Commissioner Dickmann seconds. Roll call, all voted aye.
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that Kaerek Builders, Inc. was requesting approval of the final plat for phase I of Jenna Prairie Estates subdivision at 9550 S. Shepard Avenue. The subdivision will create 38 lots in the Rs-3, Single Family Residential subdivision.
Commissioner Dickmann motioned that the Commission recommend to the Common Council that the final plat for phase I of Jenna Prairie Estates subdivision be approved subject to the following conditions:
Commissioner Marhal seconds. Roll call, all voted aye.
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that Jeff and Connie Ploch were requesting approval of a certified survey map that would subdivide the property at 9762R S. Shepard Avenue into 2 parcel of 1.2541 acres and 1.4270 acres.
Commissioner Siira motioned that the Commission recommend to the Common Council that the certified survey map for the property at 9762R S. Shepard Avenue be approved subject to the following conditions:
Commissioner Foeckler seconds.
Commissioner Dickmann stated that the development agreement was not required. Commissioner Siira motioned to strike condition No. 2. Second concurs.
Roll call, all voted aye.
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that Bliffert Lumber and Fuel was requesting Commission approval for two (2) metal storage buildings to their property at 6826 S. 13th Street. These buildings would be used to shelter building materials currently stored outside on the proposed building site. The proposed location of the two buildings is on the far East side of the property as shown on the site plan. Bliffert Lumber is requesting to eliminate the minimum glass, brick or decorative masonry provisions. The Plan Commission may modify that requirement by a 3/4-majority vote of those Commissioners present.
Commissioner Kopplin would like to see some screening on 13th Street and also stated that she did not have a problem with granting a variance because of the location of the buildings. However, she would like to see the garages on 13th Street be repaired or removed.
Building Commissioner Ed Ciechanowski, agreed that the buildings on 13th Street needed attendance.
Mayor Bolender requested that Bliffert Lumber repair or remove the garages.
Eli Bliffert, Bliffert Lumber and Fuel, stated they plan to move or repair all of the garages by the end of 2004.
Assistant Fire Chief George Krudop, stated he has spoke with Bliffert and they are aware of Fire Department requirements and provided him with a copy of those requirements for his reference.
Commissioner Dickmann stated that if a variance is allowed that Bliffert Lumber clean up 13th Street and present a landscape plan for that clean up.
Commissioner Kopplin questioned if retention would be required at this time with the new buildings. Commissioner Jackson replied that they fall below the minimums at this time and no retention is required.
Mayor Bolender questioned if the garages would be removed before the end of the year. Mr. Bliffert replied that they would take them down or fix them.
Commissioner Kopplin motioned that the Commission approve the site and building plans for two commercial accessory structures at 6826 S. 13th Street subject to the following conditions:
Commissioner Siira seconds.
Commissioner Jackson suggested that the variance be added to the conditions. Mr. Seymour agreed and noted that the variance had to be approved by a 3/4-majority vote.
Commissioner Kopplin added that the variance be added. Commissioner Siira concurs.
Roll call, all voted aye.
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that they recommended that these properties be rezoned to grant a planned unit development overlay for a Target store and related commercial development at their last meeting. The conditions and restrictions have been prepared to regulate the planned unit development.
Mr. Charles Gabaldon, Gabaldon Properties, asked for clarification on item 8c that talks about the outlots having a ground mount monument sign. He wanted to make it clear that the ground mount monument sign would have a number of different panels for each of the tenants.
Mr. Seymour stated that when reviewing signs whether they were ground or pole they would not necessarily be concerned with the content of the sign but the dimensions of the sign.
Mr. Gabaldon questioned the language that allowed each tenant only one wall sign. It would be fine if the building were to be built abutting up against an alley or something else in the back. The building would be architecturally pleasing from all four sides. There may be a need to consider the building from all four sides and provide signage for people as they approach the building and as well as from the Target side.
Mr. Seymour stated that could be done as part of the PUD but requested that the signage be held to something that is architecturally sensitive. Mr. Gabaldon stated they would just be looking for a sensible sign that everyone could read.
Mr. Seymour requested that the signs be a maximum of 100 square feet and staff would have the discretion to reduce the square footage if it felt it was appropriate.
Mr. Gabaldon stated they could work with that and that they have their own master sign plan that they incorporate into their own buildings that state that all tenant signs must match all materials of the building to make it consistent with the quality of the building.
Commissioner Peterson wanted to know the maximum number of tenants on outlot A. Mr. Gabaldon replied that would be difficult to say at this point not knowing what the tenant mix would be. He thought it would be around seven to ten tenants.
Commissioner Siira questioned where food service and other types of deliveries would access outlot B. Mr. Gabaldon stated it was just a preliminary plan and when the actual building was identified provisions would be made in the parking lot to make sure that the building could get delivery access within the site.
Mr. Seymour stated that the conditions could state that each of the commercial outlots may have one ground sign an individual businesses within the PUD may have one wall sign facing Howell Avenue and one sign facing the Target frontage with a maximum of 100 square feet per sign subject to the discretion of the Director of Community Development or the Plan Commission may require an overall sign plan for the outlots as part of the approval of the site plan recognizing that they may not meet the requirements of Section 17.0706.
Commissioner Dickmann questioned if Target had concerns with the time of compliance. Ms. Jana Bean stated that Target felt comfortable that they could get started within twelve months.
Mr. Arden Degner, 8540 S Pennsylvania Avenue, expressed his concern for sidewalks and grass on all sides. Mr. Seymour replied that there would be sidewalks on all sides and the streetscapes on both Centennial Drive and Aspen Drive would be treated as a landscaped area.
Mr. George Krudop, 8421 S. Shepard Avenue, expressed his concern for sidewalks between Kohl’s and Target.
Commissioner Foeckler asked for confirmation that the green space requirement was being treated as it had been in the past with PUDs, 30% applicable to the entire area. Mr. Seymour confirmed that was the way they handle the situation.
Alderman Koehler requested that the streets be adjusted in 5H to reflect Howell Avenue and Centennial Avenue. He was also concerned about having the businesses open 24 hours. Mr. Seymour replied that if the Commission felt it was appropriate to set hours of operation that could be done. Alderman Koehler questioned if the conditions and restrictions would be applied to the outlots as well as Target. Mr. Seymour confirmed that they did apply to the outlots as well.
Commissioner Siira questioned what the standard and special occasion hours would be. Ms. Jana Bean replied that the normal operating hours were from 8am to 10pm Monday through Friday and 8am to 10pm on Sundays if allowed. Expanded holiday hours extend to 11pm or past depending on what is allowed in the municipality.
Mr. Seymour reminded the Commission that if the hours of operation if not specified apply to the entirety of the development and there may be circumstances within the commercial outlots where separate hours of operation may be warranted. If there was a coffee shop or a bakery 8 o’clock in the morning may not be appropriate.
Alderman Koehler agreed that different types of business may require different hours of operation but his main concern was not to have a 24-hour business operation. Mr. Seymour stated it could be a condition and if the Commission concurred they could add a prohibition on 24-hour businesses.
Commissioner Dickmann stated he felt a 20-foot buffer was not necessary.
Arden Degner questioned the distance between the Target store and the Centennial apartments. Mr. Seymour estimated it was about 70 or 80 feet.
Commissioner Siira motioned that the Commission recommend to the Common Council that the attached conditions and restrictions be incorporated into the planned unit development approval for the properties at 8903, 8959 and 8989 S. Howell Avenue after a public hearing with the following corrections:
Commissioner Dickmann seconds.
Mr. Seymour questioned how the signage issue would be treated.
Commissioner Siira motioned that sidewalks be added up to the Continental property (Kohl’s) and that the signage be included as a separate sign package in item 8c.
Mr. Gabaldon clarified that the landscaping requirement 30% would be for the entire site.
Mr. Seymour suggested that clarification be added that the outlots be treated as their own parking lots for the purposes of determining whether they need 5% or 10% landscaping.
First and second concur. Roll call, all voted aye.
Commissioner Foeckler motioned to adjourn. Peterson seconds. Roll call, all voted aye. The meeting adjourned at 9:05p.m.