MINUTES OF THE
OAK CREEK
TUESDAY, JANUARY 14, 2003
Mayor Richards called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. The following Commissioners were present at roll call: Commissioner Rottel, Commissioner Dickmann, Commissioner Nirode, Commissioner Siira, Commissioner Jackson, Mayor Richards, Commissioner Siepert, Commissioner Kopplin, Commissioner Foeckler, and Commissioner Buchholz. Doug Seymour, Director of Community Development was also present.
Commissioner Siepert motioned to approve the minutes of the regular meeting of December 10, 2002. Commissioner Kopplin second. All voted aye. Minutes were approved.
Mr. Seymour updated the Commissioners on the actions that were taken at the January 7, 2003, Common Council meeting.
No questions or comments on the Common Council actions.
6462 S. 27th Street
Tax Key No. 715-9019
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that the owner of the Tri City Shopping Center was requesting approval of site and building plans for a reconstruction of the Pick ‘n Save Store at 6462 S. 27th Street. This would involve razing the existing building and reconstructing a new 76,000 square foot facility in its place. The new building would have a rear setback of 60 feet, which would be 15 feet in excess of what is required for rear setbacks by the Municipal Code.
The open space and landscaping for this site would be reduced from 10.52% to 10.007%. While this does not meet the 30% open space required by Code this is a redevelopment site and must maintain the existing open space if it does not meet the 30% Code requirement. The applicants feel a reduction is appropriate in this case because the open space would be made a more visible part of the site.
Staff is encouraging the owners and developers of the site to consider eliminating one or more driveways onto 27th Street. Appropriate access could easily be maintained and safety could be enhanced if one or more of these driveways were to be eliminated.
Vince Milewski, Phillips, Milewski Architects, presented the building materials and explained how they planned to enhance the site with more green space in the front of the building rather than in the rear.
Commissioner Foeckler asked if the increase in parking was due to the Ordinance or if it was the developer’s proposal.
Mr. Seymour stated that was their proposal.
Gary Kaufmann, President of NDC, LLC, explained the reasoning behind razing the existing building and replacing it with a smaller store that would still service the community.
Mr. Seymour stated that according to Code, a new building of this size, would require around 500 parking spaces. The number of parking spaces for this site will increase even though the building size is decreasing. Because this is a redevelopment of the site we do not require them to have the 500 spaces.
Commissioner Kopplin wondered where the landscaping in the parking lot was being proposed.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that all the green areas on the drawing indicated where the landscaping would be placed.
Commissioner Foeckler stated that he was not necessarily opposed to the project but was concerned for the neighbors that surround the site. His issue is with the noise and moving the building further back. If proper screening, buffering and placement of the HVAC was put in place so that the noise was reduced that would be a great situation. He was also concerned that the building was being pushed back further and wondered if the additional parking was necessary.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that presently many employees and customers park in the adjacent parking lot in the south parcel. He feels the extra parking is a benefit for the shopping center and the customers.
Commissioner Dickmann asked what the plans for future snow storage would be since the new docks would now be where in the past the snow was stored.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that the snow would be hauled off of the site if the need arises.
Commissioner Dickmann was curious as to why the entrance to the building did not line up with the median entrance.
Mr. Milewski stated that there would be two entrances to the building and that the second entrance was aligned more with the median cut. The entrances were dictated by Roundy’s and their market analysis.
Mr. Seymour asked if the towers on the building where arcades or are they interior spaces in the building. One thing that invariably happens is that when doors empty directly out into the parking lot it causes a problem with people entering the traffic lane.
Mr. Milewski stated that there would be about 16 feet of projection from the main wall that will be a covered entryway and promenade running the full length of the store.
Commissioner Siira wanted to know if they were proposing to eliminate any of the entrances to the store from 27th Street.
Mayor Richards suggested that they eliminate the second opening on the parcel and close it up and add landscaping in that area.
Mr. Milewski stated that it would be their preference not to eliminate any entrances at this point because it was working well and there did not seem to be any traffic problems with the multiple access points.
Commissioner Rottel wondered if there was not the potential for confusion with so many entrances and exits.
Mr. Seymour suggested that the median that the Mayor suggested be removed. It was his opinion that it would enhance the safety of the whole street and the parking area. He stated that there was no significant advantage to having the extra driveway.
Mr. Kaufmann explained that with the new loading dock on the south side of the building that trucks would be entering from the first driveway and that people would need the extra opening to avoid the truck traffic throughout the day.
Mr. Seymour stated that the standards in place at this point where quit a bit stricter in eliminating those points of conflict. All the reasons that they were giving for having the driveway would be reasons not to have the driveways.
Commissioner Foeckler asked how close the asphalt/retaining wall came to the property line and how close it was currently.
Mr. Milewski stated that it would be about 30 feet off the property line and the asphalt would run right up to the property line. Currently the asphalt is about 60 feet away.
Commissioner Dickmann wanted to know how much space would be between the concrete wall and the back of the new store.
Mr. Milewski stated it would be about 30 feet and about 30 feet from the retaining wall to the upper property line.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that the retaining wall would be about 8 or 9 feet high and serve as another buffer between the food store property and the adjacent neighbors. The new store will be about 4 feet taller than the original store.
Commissioner Siira stated that he liked the front of the building but had a concern about the south elevation. The south elevation would be visible to the public and there is no brick on that elevation.
Mr. Milewski stated that the reason for that would be the time of construction and that the wall would be mostly covered with landscaping.
Mr. Seymour stated that there would be a wing wall that would shelter the truck docks from view on the 27th Street side.
Commissioner Siira stated that his concern is that there is no transition from the front to the south elevation.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that his company is a big advocate of nice landscaping and maintaining it. The focal point of the south area should be the landscaping. People should see that elevation and be impressed with the landscaping.
Commissioner Kopplin was concerned about the sound bouncing off the buffer wall and traveling over to the residential area.
Mr. Milewski stated that should not be a problem now because the truck traffic would no longer be in the back of the store. The 30-foot drive is provided for fire protection purposes only.
Commissioner Dickmann was still concerned that the truck traffic would still be closer to the residents because the store was being moved farther back.
Mr. Milewski stated that it would not be a considerable difference given the angle of the docks.
Commissioner Siira inquired about the pedestrian area in the parking lot coming from 27th Street.
Mr. Milewski stated that would be a raised curbed area that would be guarded up until the point it crosses the vehicle areas in the front of the store.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that there would be speed control and signs in the parking lot for safe travel.
Mr. Seymour inquired whether or not there was access easements between the three parcels.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that there were easements between all parcels.
Commissioner Siira inquired about a pylon sign on 27th Street.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that there would be the existing pylon sign on 27th Street and just the store name on the main entrance of the building for signage proposed at this time.
Commission Siepert inquired about handicapped parking for the site.
Mr. Milewski stated that they had the proper requirement for the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Mr. Seymour stated that the Inspection Department would look at the parking lot requirements and at this point they are pretty close to the code requirements.
Bonnie Bolan, 6420 S. Crabapple Court #4, stated that the extensive tree line might not be there in a couple of years because of disease in the trees. She was concerned with the noise and garbage that may come through if the trees die.
Mary Deering, 6511 S. 25th Street, stated her concern for the location of the truck docks and the noise coming from trucks idling at night. She would like to see the docks moved to the northwest side of the building.
Marjorie Hudson, 2500 W. Crabapple Lane, stated her concern for the sound from Pick ‘n Save and her resale value in the future.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that there were also residences to the northeast of the building and there would not be enough room to move the truck docks to the north side of the building.
Mr. Milewski stated that the building could be moved about 9 feet to the west which would result in a loss of one parking space in each row and give back some green space that was lost and a little more buffer in the back.
Mayor Richards inquired as to what type of a sound barrier wall could be put in at the south corner to control the noise for the residents.
Mr. Milewski stated that it could be addressed with landscaping.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that they would work with the staff and put in satisfactory landscaping to create a buffer.
Ms. Bolens stated that the tree line was not extensive and you can see the store and hear the noise. She also stated that there was a cyclone fence that did not stop the garbage.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that he could have the fence slatted, which should help with the garbage blowing through.
Commissioner Siira inquired as to whether the HVAC would need to be screened from the front and the back of the building.
Mr. Seymour stated that without enclosing them it would be nearly impossible to screen them effectively because of the elevation change.
Louis Ethier, 6501 S. 25th Street, wanted to know where the landscaping would go if the hill was to be taken down.
Mr. Seymour stated that there would not be much that could be done as far as landscaping with that slope of the hill.
Mayor Richards stated that he would strongly recommend doing whatever landscaping could be done on the top of that hill.
Commissioner Dickmann inquired as to whether or not the docks could be put on the west side of the building to control some noise for the neighbors.
Mr. Milewski stated that there would be no room for the trucks to get to the dock for that scenario.
Mr. Seymour stated that perhaps they could put up a screening wall on the east side of the building to screen the docks from the neighbors.
Mr. Kaufmann stated that the wall could only be 12 feet high from a structural stand point but that they would be willing to put that in.
Mary Deering questioned what would be happening with the air conditioning units and fans on the top of the building.
Mayor Richards stated the noise should be about the same.
Mr. Milewski stated that the noise level might get better because the store would be smaller and the units would be newer.
Commissioner Foeckler wondered if there was any room to move the units farther away from the homes.
Mr. Milewski stated that he would mention that to the mechanical engineer as the HVAC was laid out for the building.
Doug Maciejewski, 3439 E. American Avenue, stated that the HVAC could be fenced on all sides without a roof to allow for airflow and control the noise for the neighborhood.
Commissioner Siepert moved to approve the site and building plans for the reconstruction of the Tri City Pick ‘n Save at 6462 S. 27th Street subject to the following conditions:
First and second concur. Roll call, all voted aye.
Southwest 1/4 of Section 23
Mr. Seymour explained that Triland Development was requesting a change to the Official Map for the Southwest 1/4 of Section 23 be amended to remove sections of future streets on the property. There are two different issues; the first is the removal of a planned street exiting to 15th Avenue; the second, the elimination of a planned street connection between Kender Lane and Carollton Drive.
Pete Ergen, 3513 E. American Avenue, wondered if the street could stay on the map if only a few of the neighbors wanted to develop in the future. He was also interested in building on the lot to the west if the future street was not going to be built.
Mayor Richards stated that it would depend on who was interested. If the first few landowners were not interested then it would not be able to happen.
Mr. Seymour stated that as long as there is a public street there he would have to stay 30 feet off of the future street right-of-way. The only way to eliminate the 30 feet set back would be to eliminate the future street.
Mr. Dick Bolender, 3715 E. Ryan Road, Alderman 4th District, expressed his concern for eliminating the cul de sac because the people on American Avenue may want that someday in the future. He also expressed his concern for the elimination of the connector street to American Avenue from Kendor Lane. He would like to see a street in there and not a bike path to tie the neighborhoods together.
Donna Rettmann, 3360 E. Kendor Lane, would like to see at least a connector path to American Avenue. She has concerns for traffic in the area not the development in the area.
Pete Ergen, spoke for the American Avenue neighbors, stating that the first two or three landowners did not want the street to go through. He did want the road to be available in the future if people changed their minds.
Commissioner Nirode stated that Kendor should be connected to Carollton and if that was the feeling of the Commission should they approve this amendment.
Mr. Seymour stated that there are two issues the first being the elimination of the street going out to 15th Avenue. If that is not a contentious issue then the only thing is whether or not the connection stays in or not.
Commissioner Kopplin stated that she thought that they needed the connection to 15th Avenue for fire service.
Mr. Seymour stated that there are three other points of access to the neighborhood.
Paul Teske, Triland Development, stated that they did not care if the connection between Kendor and American was a road or a pedestrian path.
Commissioner Foeckler motioned that the Commission recommend to the Common Council that the Official Map for the Southwest 1/4 of Section 23 be amended as illustrated after a public hearing with the understanding that the pedestrian path is to be a roadway.
Commissioner Rottel second.
Beth Collins, 9210 S. 15th Avenue, wanted to clarify that the reason the road did not go through to 15th Avenue was because of wetland issues.
Commissioner Nirode wanted to know where the wetlands were that would need to be crossed. Would we be saying that the road could not go through even if we left it on the map?
Mr. Seymour stated that there are avenues available for the developer to petition to cross the wetlands.
Commissioner Jackson stated that the City is doing a stream relocation to help the hydraulics of the water on 15th Avenue. To try and rectify the water problem on 15th Avenue water is being redirected to the area parklands to provide relief. The work on 15th Avenue, redoing the culverts, is being done to give some drainage relief.
Mike Iglinski, 9280 S. 15th Avenue, stated that he is 500 feet off of 15th Avenue and if it rains the water backs up to his house 400 feet.
Roll call, all voted aye.
9210 S. 15th Avenue
Tax Key No. 987-9037
Mr. Seymour explained that Triland Development was requesting an approval of the preliminary plat for the Forest Ridge subdivision at 9210 S. 15th Avenue. The subdivision would consist of 15 lots along a cul de sac extended form S. Regency Drive in the Northbrook subdivision. The property is zoned Rs-2, Single Family Residential and each of the lots within the subdivision meets that minimum criteria.
The developers have proposed a subdivision that attempts to minimize its impact on the wooded area by preserving a significant area of the resource within an outlot to be held in common ownership. Planning staff has suggested developing this subdivision as a planned unit development to further minimize its impact.
Commissioner Kopplin wanted to know where the snow would be parked if there were an island in the cul de sac.
Mr. Seymour stated that if there were no island you would have problems with the snow.
Mayor Richards stated that he would be a supporter of the island in the middle and that he thought there were to many lots based on the geography of the area. He also stated that based on traffic concerns this subdivision should not go in until the road went all the way through.
Don Schantzen, 9310 S. 8th Avenue, explained the water problems that were effecting properties on 15th Avenue. He also expressed his concern for the placement of the detention ponds and where the water would go from those ponds.
Commissioner Jackson stated that at this point we have not been presented with the preliminary plans for the outlet on the detention basin. You have to remember that with detention basins when water is left uncontrolled those waters run down stream during any storm. The detention basin is designed to hold back that slug of water and allow it to drain off at a controlled rate. That would be stormwater under control not out of control. He feels that this could help the area because what now runs off uncontrolled will now be controlled.
Mr. Iglinski stated that 10 years ago or so this land was designated as wetlands. He also stated that he would like the retaining ponds on the other side of the subdivision.
Dick Bolender, 3715 E. Ryan Road, stated that there is a water problem in this area that needs to be looked at before you put in 15 homes. He also stated that this is a natural area and we should be protecting it not destroying it.
Don Schantzen stated that he did not have a water problem with his land on 15th Street until all the homes went in the Carollton area.
Steve Schantzen, 9264 S. 15th Avenue, stated that he was not opposed to the subdivision but had concerns about the detention ponds emptying into his backyard.
Chris Schantzen, 9264 S. 15th Avenue, wondered if there was an alternative to the holding ponds.
Commissioner Jackson stated that the big thing with the detention ponds is maintenance.
No motion was taken on this item.
1000 E. Oakwood Road
Tax Key No. 922-9931-008
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that Mr. Fred Wobick, owner of the property at 1000 E. Oakwood Road was requesting that the Official Map for the Southeast 1/4 of Section 28 be amended to remove a future street on his property. There is an officially mapped cul de sac providing access to this property that does not affect other properties in this area.
Commissioner Nirode wanted clarification as to why the street would need to be removed.
Mr. Seymour stated that if a CSM came in showing a lot in that area staff would make a recommendation to this Commission and Common Council that the driveway be orientated towards the lesser of the two traveled streets and in this case it would be the future street to the south and as such the driveway would have to take access from this future street. The prospective purchaser of this street did not want that situation. Given the prior discussions of this Commission regarding driveways accessing collector streets we felt it appropriate that this issue be brought to the Commission.
Mayor Richards stated that conceptually he does not have a problem with this. If in making the assumption that this property does not get subdivided later on then there is no problem with the elimination of the road and allowing the driveway access from Shepard Avenue. But if we remove the road and allow the driveway and come back later and ask for a new street pattern then I have a problem.
Fred Wobick, 9978 S. Nicholson Road, stated that there is a ditch problem in the back and he has a chance to sell a lot and make a few bucks.
Mayor Richards stated that is not a problem unless he has the intent of developing the property further to the east. If that is the case then this road pattern should not come out.
Mr. Wobick stated that the past road pattern was supposed to go over the ditch and now that can not happen. He also stated that he could come in off of Oakwood Road with a street.
Mayor Richards stated that if he tried that the owners on Oakwood Road would probably have objections to that plan. He also stated that if he took out the road now he might have problems getting it back in later because future owners of the property to the north may have objections.
Mr. Wobick stated that he did not have a problem keeping the cul de sac in there if the Commission would allow access for this lot from Shepard Avenue.
Mayor Richards stated that it goes against policy but in this case Mr. Wobick would be caught in the middle and they could allow it.
Mr. Wobick stated that he would appreciate the opportunity to keep the roadway in and be able to sell off a lot.
Mr. Seymour stated that the Commission could accommodate if the consensus of the Commission was to allow direct driveway access without regard to the future street.
Commissioner Nirode stated that the Commission needs to understand that if we approve this one there are three or four more that they would need to approve in the future because they would be setting a precedent.
Mayor Richards stated that there are extenuating circumstances that will most likely not allow for development to the east because of the floodplain in the area.
Commissioner Buchholz wanted to know what the size of the future lot would be.
Mr. Wobick stated that the future lot would come right up to the street and would have 135 feet of street frontage.
Commissioner Foeckler moved to allow access off of S. Shepard Avenue and leave the future street as shown.
Motion withdrawn.
A consensus was reached by the Commission that would allow for direct access off of Shepard Avenue for the future lot to the north on the Wobick property north of the officially mapped street.
Mr. Wobick chose to withdraw his application for Official Map Amendment at this time.
Mr. Seymour explained to the Commission that Section 17.0810 of the Municipal Code establishes performance standards for noise. The proposed standards better define where, when and how noise is to be measured. It also establishes a variance and waiver procedure at the discretion of the Common Council.
Commissioner Dickmann inquired as to where on the chart would a refrigerator truck be rated.
Commissioner Nirode stated that it would not be as loud as truck traffic on the freeway and should be around an 80 on the scale.
Arden Degner, 8540 S. Pennsylvania Avenue, stated that he had not seen the ordinance in question but if there were to be a power outage and generators are running they may very well exceed the figures allowed for noise.
Mayor Richards stated that in an emergency all rules are off and the mayor makes the rules. To protect health and safety the mayor can allow for that type of noise.
Commissioner Dickmann moved that the Commission recommend to the Common Council that Section 17.0810 of the Municipal Code be repealed and recreated as indicated after a public hearing.
Commissioner Nirode second. Roll call, all voted aye.
Commissioner Kopplin moved to adjourn. Commissioner Siepert second. All voted aye. The meeting was adjourned at 9:47 p.m.